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vinny

Fascism one step closer

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Disclaimer : I take full responsibility for what is posted by me on this thread (including the title) - My postings are mine and do not reflect what the owner of this site may, or may not, think.

 

I have just got back from a shopping trip to Liverpool.

 

My day has been awful - I was late for a train so I ran for it - the train was in already so I got aboard, to be fair I need have not rushed it was a few minutes before it pulled off but I did not know this at the time. Two stations in (or so I think ) I was asked for my ticket. I asked for a ticket to all stations Liverpool and offered payment - normally I would be allowed to pay this way - I'm "car free" and travel this way several times a year. I was told I could no longer buy a ticket on the train ( as I have normally done when the station ticket office was closed or the train was already in). The employee I was dealing with with had no interest in selling me a ticket rather than issuing me with a "penalty fare notice" - amounting to £20 because I had not already bought a ticket. The fare should have been under £4 total.

 

I was shocked, and quite upset TBH, I explained why I had got on the train rather than buying a ticket first. (The station I travelled from has no barrier system so in the past you could just hop on, as you can do now). The employee looked and sounded disinterested. He told me that I had the chance to pay on the platform via a ticket machine or via the station office. What he said was true but I was mindful of missing the train and thought I could pay once aboard. I explained this - I knew he had a job to do and it would fall on deaf ears. I have to make mention of something that happened halfway though this convo - his workmate asked him if everything was ok - I think the fact that I was questioning what was going on may have provoked that. I'm not sure if it is relevant but The man who asked me for my ticket (initially) was about my size, at least 6' 3" I guess, his workmate was quite squat but looked at least 16 st to my eyes. The pair looked like they could work a door somewhere. I imagine for many this would be scary.

 

I refused to pay the penalty fine, but paid the full fare as I had always intended to do -but still got issued with a fine ( I refused to pay it upfront)

 

I'll post more when I have more time - anyone have any experience or help on this one?

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who I'm supposed to deal with before a court appearance:

 

Looks like they are funded from the train operating companies who sell their debt to them!!!!!!!!! - Holy crap what a scam!

 

http://www.penaltyfare.org.uk/IPFAS.htm

 

http://www.penaltyfare.org.uk/

 

who they are:

 

Merseyrail : http://www.merseyrail.org/

 

A bit of research - whoa - it's Serco - a FTSE 100 company:

 

http://www.merseyrail.org/about-us/serco.html

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Sorry to hear about that :lol: Just bad luck. I'm sure if you go to the train office and talk to someone more senior they would sort it out.

 

Reminded me of an incident a while ago; was on the return leg of a business trip. I wasn't too well up on the route so changed more times than the obvious direct route. Anyway, had my ticket stamped and punched a few times on each train, then on last train the inspector accused me of already using the ticket because it was perforated so I had to buy a new one and should not be cheeky for re-using an old ticket :huh:

I argued for a bit but ended up having to buy another ticket. It was the same as you; they don't listen, like doormen.

 

Went to the seaside on the train last Saturday and stuck there for hours with the return train cancelled, and it would have been cheaper to drive so I am not impressed with railways at moment.

Mind you, it must be a bit of a mind numbing job having to beat through very overcrowded trains every day checking tickets and having loads of lip all the time from obvious fare dodgers and aggrieved passengers.

 

Isnt there some strike action at the moment. seem to remember reading it somewhere.

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as with most 'public services', the national train network is just a money-laundering front for funnelling money into banksters' pockets.

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2006/ju...rtintheuk.money

...

The companies supplying the trains and carriages that run on Britain's railways are facing the threat of a competition inquiry today amid allegations they are ripping off passengers by charging the rail-operating firms too much.

 

The Department for Transport has referred the matter to the Office of Rail Regulation after talks aimed at lowering the cost of rolling stock failed last month.

 

Train operators lease almost all of their rolling stock from just three companies, each owned by one of the big banks: Angel Trains, a division of the Royal Bank of Scotland; HSBC Rail, owned by HSBC; and Porterbrook, a part of the Abbey Group.

...

The banks charge the rail-operating companies about £1bn a year.

...

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A similar thing happened to me on the Metro Link quite a few years ago. I normally catch trains and pay for the ticket on route if there's a ticket inspector on the train, or at the station. There were quite a few times when I managed to avoid paying altogether by this method, but avoiding the fare was not my intention, just a symptom of their reduction in the numbers of ticket collectors. For the past few years there has been a ticket guy at the steps to the train station, so I have paid before the journey, which is something I prefer. Its never my intention to avoid or evade payment, its simply a side effect of their staffing policy. I am reluctant to use the machines.

 

Anyway, the first time I got on board the MetroLink I had no idea that there was a fixed penalty charge if you did not have a ticket, the standard charge was £10 and they would not accept my explanation. I didn't pay, so the fine doubled to £20 and them £60 before I finally paid.

 

Just Imagine how many tourists and visitors must get hit with these charges each year, its all very well as a way of raising revenue, but it just makes people hate the companies and transport services and that implement these sort of polices and leaves the visitors with a negative experience of their holiday/shopping trip to the area. I have never travelled on the Metro Link since and never will, should my local rail service start to implement these type of polices then I will probably stop using them also.

 

I quite like Liverpool and scousers, but polices like this just give the rest of the population another negative image to taint Liverpool with, I can just imagine what comedians who specialize in stereotypes will say about it. You could try writing to the Liverpool tourism board, I don't think they will wave the charge, but it will make them aware of the image problem that this sort of policy will have on Liverpool.

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Thanks for the replies - I'd like to add more to the story - there is more.

 

TBH I'm quite upset still - I can't get over the feeling that I was treated like someone who tried to dodge payment - not a nice feeling.

 

I would like to read the replies when I am less uptight - but thanks guys n girls.

 

My overall feeling is a company is using the state to fleece decent people - hiding behind the law and threatening court proceedings - not a nice tactic.

 

 

 

 

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One of my friends was running late on his usual work journey because the first bus that came was full and didn't stop. The station he goes from has a ticket office but there was a big queue so he got straight on the train. There was no ticket check on the train but there is a barrier where he gets off, so he asked for a return ticket on his way through.

 

Can anyone see a problem with this?

 

If you're late in at work you can't issue public transport with a penalty. If they put on too few carriages so you have to stand you can't claim a refund. But it's still cheaper than parking in the town center, and it's usually more convenient than driving, so you keep paying the bastards.

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I have never been in such a position but I would try the following when it gets to court:

 

http://www.statutelaw.gov.uk/content.aspx?...;filesize=29720

 

Grants of Forfeitures.

 

That all Grants and Promises of Fines and Forfeitures of particular persons before Conviction are illegall and void.

 

They fined you before you were found guilty in the court and so the fine is null and void. You can write them asking if they think they are immune to the Bill of Right and under what grounds they believe they can fine you without a conviction.

 

However I would also probably do much more such as sending them a Notice of Understanding and Intent and Claim of Right (NOUICOR) with a fee schedule and then claim on it. I don't know if it would work but it would be fun turning the tables on them. Doing that would take a lot of reading and the bit from the Bill of Rights above should give you a usefull weapon against the thugs without the NOUICOR. If your experience annoys you enough then you can read about NOUICOR's and ask for help over at the tpuc.org forum. Good luck.

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One of my friends was running late on his usual work journey because the first bus that came was full and didn't stop. The station he goes from has a ticket office but there was a big queue so he got straight on the train. There was no ticket check on the train but there is a barrier where he gets off, so he asked for a return ticket on his way through.

 

Can anyone see a problem with this?

 

If you're late in at work you can't issue public transport with a penalty. If they put on too few carriages so you have to stand you can't claim a refund. But it's still cheaper than parking in the town center, and it's usually more convenient than driving, so you keep paying the bastards.

 

That is the same station set up as I faced - :(

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Have you actually been given a court summons and who is it from?

 

http://www.penaltyfare.org.uk/ doesn't seem to be working right now.

 

There are similar scams going on now in supermarket car parks which now seem to have cameras set up to clock cars coming in and out. If you go a few minutes over say a 2 or 3-hour limit you get a "notice" in the post from a company demanding you pay the "penalty charge" on the notice in the car parks. These are completely unenforceable as the company would need to sue you privately in a county court and they have very little chance of winning. They rely on fear and threats to get a good % of people who receive the letters to pay up. If anyone gets these it seems the current advice is to just ignore them

 

http://forums.pepipoo.com/lofiversion/index.php/t38510.html

 

Not sure if this applies to your train ticket. Who is issued by?

 

 

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How do they know who they are fining? I mean, would you give your name and address to one of these RentaCops?

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How do they know who they are fining? I mean, would you give your name and address to one of these RentaCops?

 

This is where the fascism comes in - it is illegal for me NOT to give my correct name, address and DOB. (I have checked into it since - unless my research is incorrect, but those were also the directions given on the "fine" ).

How did we travel this road where I am compelled by the law to give my personal details to a private company on pain of being arrested? It stinks.

 

 

cbs7 - thanks for that - the second link was actually brought to my attention by a workmate. I don't think it quite applies - but more power to those who stand up to this type of tax / theft / blackmail.

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as with most 'public services', the national train network is just a money-laundering front for funnelling money into banksters' pockets.

The Department for Transport has referred the matter to the Office of Rail Regulation after talks aimed at lowering the cost of rolling stock failed last month.

 

Train operators lease almost all of their rolling stock from just three companies, each owned by one of the big banks: Angel Trains, a division of the Royal Bank of Scotland; HSBC Rail, owned by HSBC; and Porterbrook, a part of the Abbey Group.

...

The banks charge the rail-operating companies about £1bn a year.

 

Er. That's because they did a SALE AND LEASEBACK.

 

So in fact, it was the banks putting the money in the pockets of the train companies, not the other way round.

 

FAIL!

 

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This is where the fascism comes in - it is illegal for me NOT to give my correct name, address and DOB. (I have checked into it since - unless my research is incorrect, but those were also the directions given on the "fine" ).

How did we travel this road where I am compelled by the law to give my personal details to a private company on pain of being arrested? It stinks.

 

Ya, that's what stuns me. It's not like they are an agency of the gov't, like the police or somesuch. I don't think they have the right to do this.

 

Sure, they could throw you off the train for not complying, but unless and until they are the Law, I don't see they can extract this information from you legally.

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Thanks for the replies - I'd like to add more to the story - there is more.

 

TBH I'm quite upset still - I can't get over the feeling that I was treated like someone who tried to dodge payment - not a nice feeling. It’s not worth it for £20.

 

I would like to read the replies when I am less uptight - but thanks guys n girls.

 

My overall feeling is a company is using the state to fleece decent people - hiding behind the law and threatening court proceedings - not a nice tactic.

Pay up and put it down to a bad experience. It will anger you more and more if you keep thinking about it. It’s not worth it for £20. I have been in your position myself. I went to court to fight and I won. Looking back, it wasn’t worth it. I should have paid the fine.

 

If you really really want to fight – Send the original penalty notice with a letter explaining why you are not prepared to pay the fine unless it is enforced by a Court. Ask them for a written copy of all T&Cs relating to your incident.

 

You WILL get a court summons. On the first day in court, you will confirm your name and address. They will ask you to plead. Plead ‘GUILTY’ and immediately say ‘I wish to request an UNCONDITIONAL DISCHARGE on the grounds that the change in the rail operators T&Cs was not made available to me before the event’. The court will not listen to you. They will adjourn the case and ask you to re-appear.

 

You will get to present your case on the second day in court. Plead exactly the same way again.

 

You will pay court costs if you lose the Court case. This could be £Hundreds.

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I think that may be good advice - I have an idea - money is NOT the issue.

 

Serco are the parent company - it would be nice to short and all that!!!

 

BUT..........considering money is not the issue........ I am of the mind to make a deal with people who know me. I will pay the duty, broker's fees and the cost of owning ONE share in Serco. They must take the holdindg via a shares on a certificate and be paid dividends via a warrant. Imagine their cost (and that of their registrars) if I put up say £1000 to do this!!! If you can't beat them directly - go round it.

 

The most expensive £20 they have ever made.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Pay up and put it down to a bad experience. It will anger you more and more if you keep thinking about it. It’s not worth it for £20. I have been in your position myself. I went to court to fight and I won. Looking back, it wasn’t worth it. I should have paid the fine.

 

If you really really want to fight – Send the original penalty notice with a letter explaining why you are not prepared to pay the fine unless it is enforced by a Court. Ask them for a written copy of all T&Cs relating to your incident.

 

You WILL get a court summons. On the first day in court, you will confirm your name and address. They will ask you to plead. Plead ‘GUILTY’ and immediately say ‘I wish to request an UNCONDITIONAL DISCHARGE on the grounds that the change in the rail operators T&Cs was not made available to me before the event’. The court will not listen to you. They will adjourn the case and ask you to re-appear.

 

You will get to present your case on the second day in court. Plead exactly the same way again.

 

You will pay court costs if you lose the Court case. This could be £Hundreds.

 

First day back from travelling for over a year... I had to get on a train in london without a ticket because the ticket station was closed. On arrival at the end station, there were barriers, so most of us who had no tickets managed to explain the situation to an attendant, who let us past to go and buy our tickets after-the-event.... one unlucky traveller, a black woman, had her Oyster card, but for whatever reason it had failed to be charged or activated when she had got on the train (I could be wrong about the details, I'm not familiar with oyster cards)... anyway, overhearing the converstaion, the little sh1te of a man proceeded to read her some act of law "clause 42 under chapter 11 of the transport act" or some such nonesense saying she had to pay a £20 fine. She ended up breaking down into tears because she HAD credit and was able to pay... at this point, the f4ckwit called the police over and threatened to have her arrested.

After travelling through many countries in so called 3rd world corrupt political systems, I had never seen someone treated so inhumanely. It made me sick to come home to a country that had degraded to this....

Shocked and ashamed I was !

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Disclaimer : I take full responsibility for what is posted by me on this thread (including the title) - My postings are mine and do not reflect what the owner of this site may, or may not, think.

 

I have just got back from a shopping trip to Liverpool.

 

My day has been awful - I was late for a train so I ran for it - the train was in already so I got aboard, to be fair I need have not rushed it was a few minutes before it pulled off but I did not know this at the time. Two stations in (or so I think ) I was asked for my ticket. I asked for a ticket to all stations Liverpool and offered payment - normally I would be allowed to pay this way - I'm "car free" and travel this way several times a year. I was told I could no longer buy a ticket on the train ( as I have normally done when the station ticket office was closed or the train was already in). The employee I was dealing with with had no interest in selling me a ticket rather than issuing me with a "penalty fare notice" - amounting to £20 because I had not already bought a ticket. The fare should have been under £4 total.

 

I was shocked, and quite upset TBH, I explained why I had got on the train rather than buying a ticket first. (The station I travelled from has no barrier system so in the past you could just hop on, as you can do now). The employee looked and sounded disinterested. He told me that I had the chance to pay on the platform via a ticket machine or via the station office. What he said was true but I was mindful of missing the train and thought I could pay once aboard. I explained this - I knew he had a job to do and it would fall on deaf ears. I have to make mention of something that happened halfway though this convo - his workmate asked him if everything was ok - I think the fact that I was questioning what was going on may have provoked that. I'm not sure if it is relevant but The man who asked me for my ticket (initially) was about my size, at least 6' 3" I guess, his workmate was quite squat but looked at least 16 st to my eyes. The pair looked like they could work a door somewhere. I imagine for many this would be scary.

 

I refused to pay the penalty fine, but paid the full fare as I had always intended to do -but still got issued with a fine ( I refused to pay it upfront)

 

I'll post more when I have more time - anyone have any experience or help on this one?

 

Ah.. the wonderful world of the private security force.

 

Reminds me of the time I had to pay £90 for leaving my car in the car park of the shop I was visiting. They'd clamped me within 30 seconds, threatened to tow if it wasn't payed within 1 hour.

 

... or the time when a house I was living in was broken into and burgled by bayliffs, due to unpaid bills from ex-tenants.

 

...and I'm sure we've all got a story or two about bouncers.

 

I think the vast majority of us (IRS excluded, obviously :) ) would much prefer to deal with the police.

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linky and figures? ta. :)

Do your own research.

 

Took me 30 seconds on google to turn up this

 

http://www.porterbrook.com/pages/stock.html

 

Basically the financing companies bought the rolling stock, paid cash upfront, and now lease the trains back to the companies that run them on the rails. It makes more sense that way, because the companies that run each line can change over time and so it doesn't make sense for them to own the trains.

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I think that may be good advice - I have an idea - money is NOT the issue.

 

Serco are the parent company - it would be nice to short and all that!!!

 

BUT..........considering money is not the issue........ I am of the mind to make a deal with people who know me. I will pay the duty, broker's fees and the cost of owning ONE share in Serco. They must take the holdindg via a shares on a certificate and be paid dividends via a warrant. Imagine their cost (and that of their registrars) if I put up say £1000 to do this!!! If you can't beat them directly - go round it.

 

The most expensive £20 they have ever made.

I like that idea. The website says "We combine a deep public service ethos with the commercial know-how that gives us the ability to deliver," so I don't know if any of it can be taken seriously, but they claim to do a £10 commission deal through Cazenove, by post which suggests a certificate and is probably the cheapest way to get one. Dividend of 5p/share last year. Hopefully they will send this by post but seeing as it's less than the cost of a stamp... Some annual accounts to browse through would be nice too.

 

http://www.serco.com/investors/services/sh...aling/index.asp

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Ah.. the wonderful world of the private security force.

 

Reminds me of the time I had to pay £90 for leaving my car in the car park of the shop I was visiting. They'd clamped me within 30 seconds, threatened to tow if it wasn't payed within 1 hour.

 

... or the time when a house I was living in was broken into and burgled by bayliffs, due to unpaid bills from ex-tenants.

 

...and I'm sure we've all got a story or two about bouncers.

 

couldn't you just put your spare wheel on or phone a local garage to take it off?

 

I think the vast majority of us (IRS excluded, obviously :) ) would much prefer to deal with the police.

 

:lol: if that were true then the police wouldn't have to FORCE us to pay their salaries through taxation.

 

also the police aren't free ya know and they cost A LOT more than £90.;)

 

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article6653377.ece

Secret pay deals give top police thousands extra

 

Senior police officers are receiving “off-book payments” and secret perks totalling hundreds of thousands of pounds, including private school fees and cars for their spouses

...

 

they're all in it for the money. all of them.

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http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2006/ju...rtintheuk.money

The banks charge the rail-operating companies about £1bn a year. Ministers believe the companies are overcharging by up to £100m a year.

 

how would overcharging even be possible if there is competition?

 

oh wait... there isn't!

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...

I think the vast majority of us (IRS excluded, obviously :) ) would much prefer to deal with the police.

The words ‘Police’ and ‘Thugs’ are interchangeable in this article.

 

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/a...mp;attr=2015164

 

A female police officer who was sacked after being accused of not helping a colleague attacked by thugs was subjected to a culture of bullying and victimisation at her force, a hearing was told today

 

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