Stratford etc: Can a hot neighborhood beat the slide?

[littledavesab]

What are the transport links like?

If notv very good, I will expect a big deterioration if/when oil prices take off again

 

Actually the reason was due to Newham as a borough being on the poor side rather than Stratford specifically. Newham has more than average immigrant derived population compared rest of London + a much higher birth rate. But Stratford seems to be slowly creeping up market.

 

Transport links - train + underground wise is one of the best in London. You can even get to work when strikes are on courtesy of the DLR !

 

http://www.railway-technology.com/projects...pics/specs.html

 

Route Details

TfL UndergroundJubilee and Central LinesTfL Overground'North London Line', East London LineTfL Docklands Light RailwayAll routesHigh Speed 1 (Eurostar)Paris/Brussels-London St Pancras InternationalHigh Speed 1 (Olympic Javelin)St Pancras International-Stratford InternationalNational RailLondon Liverpool Street-StratfordMain lines to London terminiFull specifications

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

London's already extensive railway network is being made ready for the Olympic Games, to be hosted at 33 venues (17 for the following Paralympics) by the UK's capital in 2012. In a turnaround from London's transport being a stumbling block in the failed 2000 Games bid, by the July 2005 announcement of the success for 2012, the projected travel arrangements had become perceived as a strong point.

 

Although now approved and due to open by 2017, the long-standing Crossrail scheme was not deemed to have been required as an essential element in the Olympic Transport Plan for 2012.

 

 

 

 

http://www.workspacegroup.co.uk/area-guide...area-guide.aspx

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stratford,_London

 

Trust me I have travelled over much of London in my time, Stratford is not that much different unless you look at upper middle / class areas. My point is Stratford can be considered a average area, up and coming at a below average cost. Clapham and Brixton were once spoken of in the same derogatory tone.

 

If you want more of a bargain look at Barking / Barkingside.

 

[Van]

Stratford is a living hell on earth. Anyone with one iota of local knowledge knows that. It's cheap for a reason - you don't want to live there. Urban regeneration won't do anything to clear out the local varmin.

[Jake]

Stratford is a living hell on earth. Anyone with one iota of local knowledge knows that. It's cheap for a reason - you don't want to live there. Urban regeneration won't do anything to clear out the local varmin.

 

I'm sorry to say I have to agree with that. HOWEVER I am recalling Stratford of 10-15 years ago and can only hope for davesab that things have really changed for the better. The memory of it would keep me away personally and the Olympics (if they attract anyone in 2012-just about near the bottom for the world's many cycles) (or if they happen at all ) will be over in the bat of an eye.

 

Looking on the bright side those transport links do look good to get the hell outta there in a hurry a bit like Birmingham (no offence) is convenient for getting to anywhere else in the country.

 

What davesab says though is true. People did say the same about Brixton etc and even Islington before going upmarket. So I guess the same could be said for Stratford. I hope anyway, coz it really did used to give me the chills. Getting out at the subway station at the wrong time was like getting psyched up for...well anything nasty happening.

 

If we had a shtf scenario I wouldn't like to re visit thanks very much. Mind you that goes for a lot of our cities.

 

Good luck Davesab, your wife having family there is beneficial IMO. Knowing the ropes is an important part of the job.

 

 

Dr Bubb. How's this for good tranny links? Only thing missing to me is a' beam me up scotty' line.

Route Details

TfL UndergroundJubilee and Central LinesTfL Overground'North London Line', East London LineTfL Docklands Light RailwayAll routesHigh Speed 1 (Eurostar)Paris/Brussels-London St Pancras InternationalHigh Speed 1 (Olympic Javelin)St Pancras International-Stratford InternationalNational RailLondon Liverpool Street-StratfordMain lines to London terminiFull specifications

 

[drbubb]

I'm sorry to say I have to agree with that. HOWEVER I am recalling Stratford of 10-15 years ago and can only hope for davesab that things have really changed for the better.

. . .

Dr Bubb. How's this for good tranny links? Only thing missing to me is a' beam me up scotty' line.

Route Details

TfL UndergroundJubilee and Central LinesTfL Overground'North London Line', East London LineTfL Docklands Light RailwayAll routesHigh Speed 1 (Eurostar)Paris/Brussels-London St Pancras InternationalHigh Speed 1 (Olympic Javelin)St Pancras International-Stratford InternationalNational RailLondon Liverpool Street-StratfordMain lines to London terminiFull specifications

I think that areas tend to gentrify OUT FROM the transport nodes.

 

If the tube stop/train stop itself is nice, that accelerates the process, and you can literally see

if from the sorts of commercial or retail development that you see, and the way the the residential

dwellings are decorated and maintained

 

Van,

Surely the entire area is not as grim as you say.

How long since you lived there or visited there?

But I do think that Shepherds Bush is a better bet

[littledavesab]

I will admit that Upton Park is a mess (physically and literally). But hey London generally has become multi cultural - always has done, probably always will be (unless there is massive social upheaval) but the last few years have seen a rapid quickening of the process.

 

You can compare Stratford with say Hackney. In the madness of the property bubble - house price rises had spilled out of the genuinely nice areas from Highbury and had gradually moved Eastwards following the line of Balls Pond Road. Even Hackney had gone shooting upwards - and there is NOTHING to justify that in Hackney (even if it is Leona Lewis's home town which is the best you can say about it). Is Stoke Newington / Tottenham really any better than Stratford ? Or for that matter, Mitcham / Crystal Palace in SW London?

 

There was a time that Stratford had a underground bus station that apparently stank and leaked all day long. That is long gone.

 

So far the main visible impact of the Olympics are the new property developments that are occurring on the outskirts of the Olympic zone.

 

Even Canning Town which until recently was a dive is showing decent promise. - In time you will see a "corridor" running from the newer docklands developments along the route of the Jubilee line & DLR through to stratford. Subtle signs are already there.

 

Remember the Hugenots? Hugenot Terrace in Wandsworth is one example of a complete reversal in fortune. However things are not going to go from A - Z in a day, I realise that.

 

http://www.huguenotsociety.org.uk/history.html

[The Traveller]

I will admit that Upton Park is a mess (physically and literally). But hey London generally has become multi cultural - always has done, probably always will be (unless there is massive social upheaval) but the last few years have seen a rapid quickening of the process.

 

You can compare Stratford with say Hackney. In the madness of the property bubble - house price rises had spilled out of the genuinely nice areas from Highbury and had gradually moved Eastwards following the line of Balls Pond Road. Even Hackney had gone shooting upwards - and there is NOTHING to justify that in Hackney (even if it is Leona Lewis's home town which is the best you can say about it). Is Stoke Newington / Tottenham really any better than Stratford ? Or for that matter, Mitcham / Crystal Palace in SW London?

 

There was a time that Stratford had a underground bus station that apparently stank and leaked all day long. That is long gone.

 

That's one for the memory banks (lived and grew up less than a mile from Stratford before emigrating) - it wasn't underground but if memory serves me correctly, it had a multi-storey car-park on top of it. Don't remember any funny smells, apart from sulphured diesel, but it did leak like a good-un. A real 60s eyesore.

 

http://newimages.fotopic.net/?iid=yovaf3&a...amp;quality=100

 

 

As for Stratford being better or worse than other places, I wouldn't call it a no-go area, but like most of London need your wits about you. A bit of common sense and keeping yourself to yourself and you'll be fine 99.9% of the time. Never had a problem myself, but it was 'my manor' so to speak. Certainly one I wouldn't pay a premium to live in (vice versa, would be looking for a discount compared to average) but you cannot fault the infrastructure and public transport.

[Undertaker]

I think one big factor in England that will slow down/stop gentrification of areas is housing benefit. You can get more rent for housing benefit than many people will earn. There are people who live in South Kensington on housing benefit!

 

So in areas like Stratford as prices rise, it is working people who cannot afford to buy or rent, whilst people on benefits will be still be able to continue to afford to live there.

 

Keeping a good "social mix" has always been a key socialist principle, hence the council estates in many prime areas of London, such as the World's End estate. Now housing benefit is used for this purpose.

[drbubb]

Keeping a good "social mix" has always been a key socialist principle, hence the council estates in many prime areas of London, such as the World's End estate. Now housing benefit is used for this purpose.

 

A "good mix" is presumably one that is highly diverse, rather than one that "works"

in terms of building a successful area in terms of livability and economic growth.

 

Such a definition of "gooda" is a nonsense, and is why socialists fail. They deny reality

[StrayDog]

this thread reminds me of an old family story my mum likes to tell. back in the early 70's my parents scraped together a small sum of money and were trying to buy a house, but couldn't find anything as they didnt have much, and being immigrants could not borrow.

 

my mum out of frustration sent my dad out and told him not to come home until he had found her a house they could buy in cash.

 

he came home late that night and told her he had found a small house in (you guessed it) stratford.

 

we lived there for almost ten years, neighbours were great, lots of community spirit and never had any trouble.

 

the area back then was predominatly white working class, cockney types who later got moved out to the new towns and places like enfield, essex, etc. great people for the most part, not like the chavs of today.

 

p.s I remember the underground bus stop very well, and yes it did stink a bit of p1ss

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Methinkshe]

I live in the South West and what I have noticed is that property values have held up very well in the catchment area of good schools. And the fewer good schools in the vicinity the larger the premium placed on such properties.

[drbubb]

http://www.metamute.org/en/content/going_n..._or_staying_put

 

Forced out of the areas they occupy, the involuntary subjects of urban gentrification confront a double challenge: the need for housing, and the need to radicalise campaigns beyond the parliamentary liberalism of rights discourse...

 

Click on link for more...

 

Excuse me, but in what way are they "forced out"?

 

[Methinkshe]

Excuse me, but in what way are they "forced out"?

 

 

There has been some "forcing out" where areas are marked for urban regeneration and Compulsory Purchase Orders are issued.

 

The problem as I see it is that there has in the past been wholesale destruction of properties (and communities) in a particular area when renovation would have been the better option. Sometimes that which replaces the old is not as good as what it replaces. And often communities are destroyed in the process.

 

I truly believe that development should be more of an organic process than a policy process dictated from on high. For instance, if a certain number of semi-decrepit houses in an inner city street are renovated it can attract more buyers to the area. But wholesale demolition and redevelopment somehow take the guts out of a street and leaves the area cold and faceless and lacking in any character and community spirit. Such severing of all ties between old and new can lead to a sense of dispossession and alienation. An organic process consisting of renovation where possible and small-scale demolition where not can attract new buyers while leaving long term residents in place and the community spirit intact.

[drbubb]

this thread reminds me of an old family story my mum likes to tell. back in the early 70's my parents scraped together a small sum of money and were trying to buy a house, but couldn't find anything as they didnt have much, and being immigrants could not borrow.

 

my mum out of frustration sent my dad out and told him not to come home until he had found her a house they could buy in cash.

 

he came home late that night and told her he had found a small house in (you guessed it) stratford.

 

we lived there for almost ten years, neighbours were great, lots of community spirit and never had any trouble.

 

the area back then was predominatly white working class, cockney types who later got moved out to the new towns and places like enfield, essex, etc. great people for the most part, not like the chavs of today.

 

p.s I remember the underground bus stop very well, and yes it did stink a bit of p1ss

Welcome, StrayDog.

Good first post. Let's hear more from you.

[drbubb]

There has been some "forcing out" where areas are marked for urban regeneration and Compulsory Purchase Orders are issued.

 

The problem as I see it is that there has in the past been wholesale destruction of properties (and communities) in a particular area when renovation would have been the better option. Sometimes that which replaces the old is not as good as what it replaces. And often communities are destroyed in the process.

 

I truly believe that development should be more of an organic process than a policy process dictated from on high.

 

I see your point. Thanks for the explanation.

I will try to rethink my attitude towards tose cries of being forced out, which I usually think of as people whining because their

rents are rising as the neighhood improves through gentrification.

 

For every whining person who leaves, there are probably five that enjoy the windfall of suddenly living in a better neighborhood

thanks to the fact that hundreds of millions, or maybe billions, were spent by someone else on new transpoort links, or some

other form of transport.

 

I reckon that they whine, because they thibnk they can enjoy the benefits of the upgrade without paying anymore rent,

or any higher taxes/.

[Methinkshe]

I see your point. Thanks for the explanation.

I will try to rethink my attitude towards tose cries of being forced out, which I usually think of as people whining because their

rents are rising as the neighhood improves through gentrification.

 

For every whining person who leaves, there are probably five that enjoy the windfall of suddenly living in a better neighborhood

thanks to the fact that hundreds of millions, or maybe billions, were spent by someone else on new transpoort links, or some

other form of transport.

 

I reckon that they whine, because they thibnk they can enjoy the benefits of the upgrade without paying anymore rent,

or any higher taxes/.

 

 

Hmm, that may be true in some cases but I do think that there are some genuine grievances especially in some of our northern cities - Leeds, Manchester etc.

 

I also think it is a great shame to demolish well-built 19C terraces, say, and replace them with shoddily built 21C flats when there is ample evidence that renovation is not only possible but desirable (consider many areas in London where such terraces have been improved beyond recognition).

 

As per usual, it is interference from remote bureaucrats (at the instigation of ministers - John Prescott has a track record in this area and it ain't pretty) that causes the problem. They understand the desirability of "gentrification" but instead of simply promoting the concept with a carrot or two and allowing local people to decide exactly how it should be achieved, impose targets and one-size-fits-all type policies that cause more harm than good.

 

MPs need to learn to trust local people and stop trying to micro-manage. They all talk of devolving power to local government but in practice it rarely occurs.

 

 

[littledavesab]

I think one big factor in England that will slow down/stop gentrification of areas is housing benefit. You can get more rent for housing benefit than many people will earn. There are people who live in South Kensington on housing benefit!

 

So in areas like Stratford as prices rise, it is working people who cannot afford to buy or rent, whilst people on benefits will be still be able to continue to afford to live there.

 

Keeping a good "social mix" has always been a key socialist principle, hence the council estates in many prime areas of London, such as the World's End estate. Now housing benefit is used for this purpose.

 

While I recognise your comments here and elsewhere about the waste in paying for housing benefits in posh West London, I do feel that one of the benefits about London/UK compared to the US certainly is that we do not have great big massive "no go" type areas - small dodgy estates yes and other shabby towns but those are........."contained"

 

I dont think it would be particulary good to cart off a large number of people and send them 'up north where it is cheaper!

 

Still we could send some maybe .... Seriously some like those on housing benefits and not in employment for more than say 2 years?

 

Interesting to compare some of the anti Stratford comments with anti Burnley

http://www.greenenergyinvestors.com/index....mp;#entry184460

[drbubb]

Interesting to compare some of the anti Stratford comments with anti Burnley

http://www.greenenergyinvestors.com/index....mp;#entry184460

Didn't I read somewhere about the new "olympic areas" being unsafe - or like prisons?

 

But maybe that was Vancouver- home of the Winter Olympics.

[drbubb]

British Land (BLND.L) ... update

 

Barratt Development (BDEV.L) ... update

 

(Residential Property/BDEV has signalled a healthy bounce is coming, by breaking above the 252d.MA, but UK commercial/BLND has not done that yet.)

Barratt/ BDEV has slid since a year ago

 

[borassic]

I was at North East London Poly from '86-'88, lived in Hackney, cycled passed the old Lesney Toy Factory to my little campus in Stratford.

 

It was tri-cultural then - white, black, asian. Went back recently - same horrible shopping precinct, new shiny station. General air of inner-city grime, crime and poverty. Less white people than 25 years ago.

 

East London has an image problem, always will.

 

A modern day disease is hype - Olympics? So what! I hate athletics, we all hate athletics. Boring, dull getting a wet arse sitting on a plastic seat eating junk food (That'll be £10.95 please mate).

 

I moved to the Highlands and agents there went hype-drive over the newly formed Cairngorms National Park.

 

We need long term wealth creation, not stadiums or red squirrel counters.

[littledavesab]

East London has an image problem, always will.

 

House ownership is a long term thing. Opinions take a long time to change. The again it might all go t1ts up.

 

 

A modern day disease is hype - Olympics? So what! I hate athletics, we all hate athletics. Boring, dull getting a wet arse sitting on a plastic seat eating junk food (That'll be £10.95 please mate).

 

Me 2! Still I plan to watch the para olympics especially swimmers and basketball players.

[littledavesab]

Well no doubt property prices round Stratford E15 way are down from the peak. Id guess at circa drop from £300k down to £240-250k but I am no expert and have not been watching prices closely for 5 years.

 

However my untrained eye does spot some nice ish properties in fairly decent locations that compare well to other parts of London.

 

One at £300k being a large ish 3 bedroom mid-terrace overlooking a fairly decent park. Other neighbouring properties are converted into circa 3 flats. Am fairly sure you could have priced this up at £350k a few years back.

 

Another is at £250k 3 bedroom, decent size rooms plus cellar. This would have been priced close to £290k at the peak.

 

Olympics works seem to be progressing, you dont see much of it as the whole site is cordoned off. Think most residents are looking forward (or NOT as the case may be re traffice tc) to the opening of Stratford City shopping centre - if it is as posh as Westfield White City not 100% sure where they are going to get the customers from!

 

 

[drbubb]

Well no doubt property prices round Stratford E15 way are down from the peak. Id guess at circa drop from £300k down to £240-250k but I am no expert and have not been watching prices closely for 5 years.

 

However my untrained eye does spot some nice ish properties in fairly decent locations that compare well to other parts of London.

It is interesting to observe these drops BEFORE the Olympics

 

// Note: I am going to move this thread to the GPC section //

[lupercal]

I think one big factor in England that will slow down/stop gentrification of areas is housing benefit. You can get more rent for housing benefit than many people will earn. There are people who live in South Kensington on housing benefit!

 

So in areas like Stratford as prices rise, it is working people who cannot afford to buy or rent, whilst people on benefits will be still be able to continue to afford to live there.

 

Keeping a good "social mix" has always been a key socialist principle, hence the council estates in many prime areas of London, such as the World's End estate. Now housing benefit is used for this purpose.

 

Bumped this.

[drbubb]

Bumped this.

...in areas like Stratford as prices rise, it is working people who cannot afford to buy or rent, whilst people on benefits will be still be able to continue to afford to live there

Actually, areas like Stratford may "benefit" from Caps on housing benefits.

People may be forced to move out of more expensive areas like Kensington, and Stratford may beckon.

 

But I have to wonder, will you want HB tenants as neigbbors?