SILVER

[aliveandkicking]

Question for the traders please

 

I have traded gold electronically before but not silver. I seem to recall holding a long gold position is the most expensive position to hold so that you lose your profit pips and move to a loss at a certain % rate per annum? I recall 9%?

 

If you hold a short silver position electronically what is the gain per annum if there is one?

 

Thanks

[electroweak]

Question for the traders please

 

I have traded gold electronically before but not silver. I seem to recall holding a long gold position is the most expensive position to hold so that you lose your profit pips and move to a loss at a certain % rate per annum? I recall 9%?

 

If you hold a short silver position electronically what is the gain per annum if there is one?

 

Thanks

Did you consider using options? You can buy PUTs quite far into the future with a high time value so downside risk is limited whilst upside (on your short) is potentially high.

 

BTW, I wouldn't short silver unless you had physical somewhere you were hedging.

[ziknik]

...

If you hold a short silver position electronically what is the gain per annum if there is one?

 

Thanks

 

There’s no gain for holding short positions at the moment (and the fees on long positions are reduced). This is because LIBOR has been screwed down.

 

This is how it usually works

 

If you go long; you pay them: LIBOR plus their standard fee

If you go short; they pay you: LIBOR minus their standard fee

 

Standard fees are around 2-3% and LIBOR is less than 2%

[aliveandkicking]

There’s no gain for holding short positions at the moment (and the fees on long positions are reduced). This is because LIBOR has been screwed down.

 

This is how it usually works

 

If you go long; you pay them: LIBOR plus their standard fee

If you go short; they pay you: LIBOR minus their standard fee

 

Standard fees are around 2-3% and LIBOR is less than 2%

 

Thanks.

 

[DoctorSolar]

ZEAL Report: Silver/Gold Ratio

 

Never entirely sure what to make of this type of thing. These guys have written up a report on their top 12 silver mining companies and I think this is effectively a preamble/advert to encourage you to buy it.

 

However, there are a few interesting charts and observations though. With the current ratio at 65 and the recent average being 55 silver would appear undervalued relative to gold. However, as can be seen from the report by adrian ash, from bullion vault, silver doesn't always follow gold up in time of crisis such as we have now. In fact I seem to recall Bob Hoye stating in his latest howe street interview

that the ratio may even get to the 85 extremes again.

 

Personally im some what more inclined to be in the Morgan/(Bubb?) camp and think silver will see a pull back here before a big move towards the end of this year/beginning of next.

 

In terms of putting my money where my mouth is im pretty much following marc fabers advice of using gold and silver (via goldmoney) as a savings account. Every month I buy what ever my left over GBP will get me. An imminent lump sum of cash will also be averaged in.

 

 

[shawth]

ZEAL Report: Silver/Gold Ratio

 

Never entirely sure what to make of this type of thing. These guys have written up a report on their top 12 silver mining companies and I think this is effectively a preamble/advert to encourage you to buy it.

 

However, there are a few interesting charts and observations though. With the current ratio at 65 and the recent average being 55 silver would appear undervalued relative to gold. However, as can be seen from the report by adrian ash, from bullion vault, silver doesn't always follow gold up in time of crisis such as we have now. In fact I seem to recall Bob Hoye stating in his latest howe street interview

that the ratio may even get to the 85 extremes again.

 

Personally im some what more inclined to be in the Morgan/(Bubb?) camp and think silver will see a pull back here before a big move towards the end of this year/beginning of next.

 

In terms of putting my money where my mouth is im pretty much following marc fabers advice of using gold and silver (via goldmoney) as a savings account. Every month I buy what ever my left over GBP will get me. An imminent lump sum of cash will also be averaged in.

 

I have thought about a goldmoney account. However, the purchase cots, sell costs and storagecosts as a % are greater than bullion vault, although bullion vault you can only buy gold. Also if gold and silver do go to the moon over the next 5-10 years you will be smacked for a load of capital gains tax. Surely it is better to invest in gold and silver through a bullion backed etf within an isa?

 

I know that some people say there is a risk that these etfs don't have sufficient bullion backing, but I would think the risk (if quanitified) of that is smaller than the certainty of the capital gains tax of an investment outside of an isa? Or are you looking to invest more than the annual limits of an isa?

 

Just trying to understand the merits of a bullion account in case i have missed something.

 

Ta

 

[DoctorSolar]

I have thought about a goldmoney account. However, the purchase cots, sell costs and storagecosts as a % are greater than bullion vault, although bullion vault you can only buy gold. Also if gold and silver do go to the moon over the next 5-10 years you will be smacked for a load of capital gains tax. Surely it is better to invest in gold and silver through a bullion backed etf within an isa?

 

I know that some people say there is a risk that these etfs don't have sufficient bullion backing, but I would think the risk (if quanitified) of that is smaller than the certainty of the capital gains tax of an investment outside of an isa? Or are you looking to invest more than the annual limits of an isa?

 

Just trying to understand the merits of a bullion account in case i have missed something.

 

Ta

My reason for going with Goldmoney:

 

1) You can swap between gold and silver and thus play the gold silver ratio. Can't do this via bullionvault.

2) The ETFs that I have seen available listed on the London Stock Exchange are backed by AIG. Not something I am comfortable with.

3) Goldmoney allow you to take physical deliver of as little as 100g gold and collect in person at Bairds in London

4) This site has a ncie deal going with goldmoney where you get 6 months free storage

5) Goldmoney let you hold cash in a variety of currencies.

[huntergatherer]

I have thought about a goldmoney account. However, the purchase cots, sell costs and storagecosts as a % are greater than bullion vault, although bullion vault you can only buy gold. Also if gold and silver do go to the moon over the next 5-10 years you will be smacked for a load of capital gains tax. Surely it is better to invest in gold and silver through a bullion backed etf within an isa?

 

I know that some people say there is a risk that these etfs don't have sufficient bullion backing, but I would think the risk (if quanitified) of that is smaller than the certainty of the capital gains tax of an investment outside of an isa? Or are you looking to invest more than the annual limits of an isa?

 

Just trying to understand the merits of a bullion account in case i have missed something.

 

Ta

Points to add to debate:

 

1. Currently no CGT on Au. Hold physical where practical then use GM or BV for larger amounts.

2. One of the advantages of holding Au is to avoid counterparty risk. (much endorsed by James Turk)

3. ETFs are derivatives and thus exposure to broad financial markets, mechanisms and their problems.

4. ETFs are best suited to short term trading only in the way they behave. They have annual fees.

5. Problems with ISAs are the set up costs. Are they worth it? You can bag around 10k CGT free.

6. GM outside UK jurisdiction. BV could be more exposed to government policy.

7. With GM you pay a higher commission when buying but remember when selling (which will be a larger total sum) you sell at equivalent market value spot. (based on Au fix price)

8. With GM you can earn interest on funds and switch between currencies.

[id5]

...

1. Currently no CGT on Au. Hold physical where practical then use GM or BV for larger amounts.

...

There is no CGT only if you hold physical in UK legal tender, Sovereigns and Britannias, CGT is payable on all other forms or bar and coins.

[shawth]

There is no CGT only if you hold physical in UK legal tender, Sovereigns and Britannias, CGT is payable on all other forms or bar and coins.

 

Yes that is my understanding.

 

So if you have £50k worth of bullion and that rises to £250k in 5-10 years, you will get hit with 18% of £200k or £36k.

 

Ouuuuchhhh!!!

 

My isa has no setup costs, i pay 1% to buy phag or phau etfs and no holding costs.

 

so what is the probability that my etfs collapse? well the government in uS and UK has not allowed this to happen. Granted I was v woried about this in October, but this clearly is n't going to happen now. James Turk would wind people up about counterparty risk. He founded gold money so his opinion is totally irrelevant from an independent assesment.

 

I am therefore not sold on any of the points of the last two postings.

 

 

 

[Pixel8r]

I have thought about a goldmoney account. However, the purchase cots, sell costs and storagecosts as a % are greater than bullion vault.

Goldmoney has no sell costs, you get spot price, where as BV does + as DocorSolar says you can swap metals cheaply.

 

 

[Mr Pipples]

When it comes to declaring CGT on switching between gold, silver and currencies held at GM, can anyone clue me in?

[electroweak]

Yes that is my understanding.

 

So if you have £50k worth of bullion and that rises to £250k in 5-10 years, you will get hit with 18% of £200k or £36k.

 

Ouuuuchhhh!!!

 

 

How much gold or silver did you lose in your last boating accident??

http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=380422

 

It can cross borders quite easily, say to india, dubai, china.... etc.

 

EDIT I like mamboni's post #28.

[Pixel8r]

When it comes to declaring CGT on switching between gold, silver and currencies held at GM, can anyone clue me in?

I spoke with my accountant about this and he told me that when you swap you are actually selling and reinvesting. So if the sale is within your £9,000 profit allowance, it is beneficial as you are taking part of your allowance for that year and reinvesting the money.

 

[id5]

When it comes to declaring CGT on switching between gold, silver and currencies held at GM, can anyone clue me in?

You are obliged to inform HMRC when you make a gain in CGT, normally at the end of your tax year. You only have to account for it when you withdraw funds from GoldMoney to another bank account. Sometimes it is worth taking the hit on the spread costs to make sure that you use your full CGT allowance each year.

 

[InSilverWeTrust]

I stumbled across this guy a few months ago -

 

http://www.drschoon.com/default.asp

 

He has some very good views IMO, so maybe worth a look.

 

He's also a strong believer in Gold and Silver

 

http://www.drschoon.com/articles/EconomyTi...ldAndSilver.pdf

 

http://www.drschoon.com/articles/TheYellowBrickRoad.pdf

 

The full list of articles -

 

http://www.drschoon.com/articles.asp

[lowrentyieldmakessense(honest!)]

I stumbled across this guy a few months ago -

 

http://www.drschoon.com/default.asp

 

He has some very good views IMO, so maybe worth a look.

 

He's also a strong believer in Gold and Silver

 

http://www.drschoon.com/articles/EconomyTi...ldAndSilver.pdf

 

http://www.drschoon.com/articles/TheYellowBrickRoad.pdf

 

The full list of articles -

 

http://www.drschoon.com/articles.asp

yep im a fan

 

and this sums up a lot

 

LosersInTheCasinoOfPaperMoney

[InSilverWeTrust]

yep im a fan

 

and this sums up a lot

 

LosersInTheCasinoOfPaperMoney

 

Thanks...everyone of his articles is good!

 

http://www.drschoon.com/articles/Gold%20Bu...%20Lifetime.pdf

 

Just read this and 'wow', I knew he sold the gold at a stupid price but I didn't know the reason. Goldman Sachs seem to have their sticky fingers on everything I read.

 

WHEN GORDEN BROWN SOLD BRITAIN’S GOLD

"In 1999, it was rumored that investment bank Goldman Sachs had a 1,000 ton gold short position in the markets. Goldman Sachs was betting that the price of gold would continue to fall and they would be amply rewarded for their apparent “risk”. Because of central bank manipulation, the price of gold had moved inversely to the rise of stocks for almost 20 years and bankers were making easy money on the bet gold would continue its downward spiral. However, much to the shock of Goldman Sachs and the central bankers, in 1999 gold stopped falling; and, because Goldman Sachs’ short position was so large, Goldman possibly could suffer catastrophic losses. This is when England’s then Chancellor of the Exchequer, Gordon Brown, on May 8,

1999 announced England would sell over 50 % of its gold reserves, 415 tons of the most precious metal on earth at the very bottom of the market.

The decision to sell England’s gold thereby saved Goldman Sachs and insured the political future of Gordon Brown. Goldman Sachs’ is still in business and Gordon Brown is now the Prime Minister of England—proving that good things come to those who do the bidding of the powerful (whether either outcome was worth 415 tons of England’s gold is questionable)

 

Selling a nation’s gold to save the bankers’ parasitic system is now common practice as the banker’s system continues to collapse and gold continues to rise. Since Gordon Brown sold England’s gold, gold has risen from $275 dollars per ounce to its present price of over $900 despite the thousands of tons of central bank gold sold to prevent its inexorable movement higher."

[Mr Pipples]

I spoke with my accountant about this and he told me that when you swap you are actually selling and reinvesting. So if the sale is within your £9,000 profit allowance, it is beneficial as you are taking part of your allowance for that year and reinvesting the money.

 

 

You are obliged to inform HMRC when you make a gain in CGT, normally at the end of your tax year. You only have to account for it when you withdraw funds from GoldMoney to another bank account. Sometimes it is worth taking the hit on the spread costs to make sure that you use your full CGT allowance each year.

 

Thanks for that.

[id5]

Thanks for that.

It is also worthwhile keeping your own copies of statements as quite a few of the online banks, stock rooms, etc do not keep a long enough history. Print or save your statements in case of tax investigation.

[Gatesy]

ZEAL Report: Silver/Gold Ratio

 

 

In terms of putting my money where my mouth is im pretty much following marc fabers advice of using gold and silver (via goldmoney) as a savings account. Every month I buy what ever my left over GBP will get me. An imminent lump sum of cash will also be averaged in.

 

Keep meaning to look at averaging into GM (I already have a core holding). Do they now allow Direct Debits from the Uk or do you have to go through the painful clearing / waiting process every month?

 

[Mr Pipples]

Keep meaning to look at averaging into GM (I already have a core holding). Do they now allow Direct Debits from the Uk or do you have to go through the painful clearing / waiting process every month?

 

Check their FAQ but doubt they're accepting DD's. Maybe a Standing Order could be set up? Give them a call.

[ziknik]

Keep meaning to look at averaging into GM (I already have a core holding). Do they now allow Direct Debits from the Uk or do you have to go through the painful clearing / waiting process every month?

I don’t think you can D/D into GM.

 

The waiting period is only 1 working day if you have a 'fast payments' bank account

[Pixel8r]

Keep meaning to look at averaging into GM (I already have a core holding). Do they now allow Direct Debits from the Uk or do you have to go through the painful clearing / waiting process every month?

You have to make a bacs payment to them. Check the website as you have to start it on there which gives you a code to put on the ref for the bacs.

 

Another good idea is once your account is linked to restrict withdrawals to any other account.

 

[wren]

Another good idea is once your account is linked to restrict withdrawals to any other account.

After restricting it to one account is it possible to change it, e.g. change to one other account?