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bakachu

Thinking of emigrating out of UK, (NZ or Canada?)

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Hi,

 

I know we have a few extremely helpful NZ'ers and other well travelled users on this forum, I was wondering if any one would mind commenting on life style in other countries.

 

Firstly, myself and wife and 1 year old baby are currently based in the UK, we have no debts (other than a bit of student loan) and a small amount of savings.

 

I am quite made up that the UK is, well, in ruins, and that its not going to get better any time soon.

 

Thinking globally, Canada, Australia, and NZ all seem like nice places to emigrate to. Canada and Australia both rich in natural resources, Canada for its oil and also Uranium (which could be very good for the future) and Australia for its minerals and oil. NZ doesn't seem to have much to offer apart from wood here..

 

Levels of debt in Canada seem quite sensible compared to other countries, I think Australia is a bit worse off but with the neutral resources I would hope that this wouldn't be too much of an issue. From what I understand NZ is suffering from 'silly debt' much like the UK is.

 

I really don't like the idea of the creepy crawlies in Australia.. and also the water crisis is worrying for the long term future.

 

I don't like the idea of being eaten by a bear in Canada :) (I like the outdoors!) And also the climate sounds challenging, we would have to do the warmest bit around Vancouver.

 

NZ doesn't have creepy crawlies or bears... and has a climate to suit almost everyone (depending on where you want to live). And I've only got good things to say about the NZ people themselves, which is all great. But I'm concerned about how similar NZ economic situation is to the UK. If any one has any thoughts or insights as to how NZ will ride out the storm compared to the UK it would greatly appreciated.

 

I've heard good things about people emigrating to Canada, especially about Vancouver being very metropolitan. I'm wondering whether this will hold during the global recession, or whether living standards in Canada have maybe peaked and could be on the way down.

 

From this point of view, NZ looks very attractive, I like the smaller size, especially after watching those Martenson demographic videos!. Although I've heard it described as an 'Open Prison' due to the currency exchange rate and the distance from other places. I guess its easy to goto NZ but not as easy to get back out again.

 

I suppose if I'm thinking about economy, currency value, and perhaps a little materialism.. then the choice seems like Canada, But if I'm thinking more of a calmer way of life and somewhere I could call home, it would be NZ (although with concerns about the debt levels and the economy)

 

Would appreciate anyone's thoughts, thanks!

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I can give you my views, but it's 1.55am here, so it'll have to be tomorrow, unless I don't get time because I'm down the beach :D :D

 

I'll give you something to look at in the mean time.

 

http://www.angelfire.com/hi5/neuralnetwriter/ (it's a bit slow because it's still free hosted. I really must do something about that)

 

Try this:

 

Emigration Suitability Calculator

See how the factors affecting successful emigration affect your chances of emigrating successfully.

http://www.angelfire.com/hi5/neuralnetwrit...calculator.html

 

 

I'll give you a pros and cons realistic view. OK.

 

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Wow Steve,

 

Didnt realise you have a whole forum dedicated to the subject! Plenty for me to be reading :)

 

I got a nice round 0 in the suitability calculator.

 

Cheers!

 

 

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I've been quite active on a number of emigration forums since 2003 :rolleyes:

And somehow ended up with one myself. Not quite sure how that happened :unsure:

I haven't updated my website for quit a while now, so please be aware of its age.

There is still a HUGE amount of useful information on there.

 

After all that time I've become less interested in the emigration side of things, but I'm happy to help anyone who appears. I just don't promote my forum or 'advertise' its existence. Funnily enough someone from GHPC joined yesterday !

As you can tell, I'm a lot more interested in the economy now.

 

As a UK to NZ emigrant of just over 2 years now, I think I can give you a slightly different view than I would have 2 years ago. But the thing is its a very personal thing, so no one can give you a definitive answer. Although I've had quite a bit of experience with people who've successfully emigrated and those who have not, and unfortunately I can spot those who I think will find things more difficult.

 

OK, first your emigration suitability score. This is what I wrote at the end of it:

 

Family 1 - The perfect family

 

This family has no children, has a house worth £200,000 (~$540k) with no mortgage, and both partners work in good jobs.

They have moved around the country as their careers have progressed, and have little contact with friends or family.

They are in their 30's, but have never been to New Zealand. They will get comparable jobs.

They score 11 points. They have a very good chance of emigrating successfully.

 

Family 2 - The average family

 

This family has two young children, a house worth £100,000 (~$270k) after paying off the mortgage. The man works.

They have moved several times. They have a few casual friends, and only see family several times a year.

They are in their 40's, have never visited New Zealand. He will probably get a similar job to one he's doing.

They score 5 points. They have a good chance of emigrating successfully.

 

Family 3 - The worst case

 

This family has two teenage children, a house worth £50,000 (~$135k) after paying off the mortgage. The man works.

They have always lived in the same town, near both their parents and grandparents. They often go out, and have lots of friends.

They are in their 40's, and have never been to New Zealand. He will probably get a job lower than he's used to.

They score -20 points. They will find emigrating quite difficult.

 

I think that's still a pretty good guide. But only a guide.

 

I've found two main factors for people emigrating:

1. Missing family and friends. This is a huge factor. I know so many people who returned because they couldn't cope with the "loss".

2. Jobs. Some people find the salary far worse than the UK. There is a reason why Kiwis travel overseas to earn a bit of money before returning home to enjoy life here. But others find they earn quit well.

That makes it much easier for those ho will not earn well if they have money, and maybe end up mortgage free or near it.

I don't view a move to NZ typically as way to get rich, in money terms.

 

Now, some people love LIVING in NZ, and some don't. Living here is different to being on holiday. Just about everyone will love a holiday here. It's a fantastic country. But working here means salary, work practices, and for some the much more limited shopping.

If you live to shop, maybe Auckland would be OK, but many UK shopaholics find NZ ... limited.

And people keep saying "you can't get a good Indian Curry".

 

more...

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Thinking globally, Canada, Australia, and NZ all seem like nice places to emigrate to. Canada and Australia both rich in natural resources, Canada for its oil and also Uranium (which could be very good for the future) and Australia for its minerals and oil. NZ doesn't seem to have much to offer apart from wood here..

 

Just a quick one, don't forget that NZ has huge geothermal, wind wave and solar potential (as well as a lot of wood!). Medium to long term energy wise, I think it will be better off than Canada or Oz. There is also less chance of overseas interference here as we don't have resources that are easy to steal!

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I'll try and describe two things.

 

1. The 'type' of person who generally will like living in NZ.

This is my general impression, but it's not a black and white thing. If you take "Sex in the City" as an example of a certain 'type' of person. I typically wouldn't think that sort of person would like NZ. I think except for the poshest spots, they'd find it a bit 'rough', and not quite like "NY".

 

The sort of person who is more keen to "get stuck in" will typically like it more. Lt me give you an example which might give you an idea.

When I needed my car exhaust repaired, I went into an exhaust place as you would in the UK and asked whether they had the right bit for my car.

Th chap cam out, climbed under the car, cam back out and said "yeah no problem I can repair that".

He meant, make a new piece of quite complex curved piping and weld it in place :blink:

And in about 30 minutes he'd done just that and charged me $60 (about £20) !!!!

 

So a typical "replace bits of exhaust" guy from the UK will find thy lack the skills needed here.

But, mainly I want to try and get over the "attitude" here.

 

Companies her are usually 1 guy or maybe a few guys. They don't look to buy an xyz. They invent one, and make it.

 

2. How it feels here.

There are modern housing estates. Called sub-divisions. So there are areas where Poms often tend to be in the majority.

But most of NZ has Villas. Wooden single storey houses.

To a Pom, NZ can look a bit "old". Not quite as "smart" as the UK typically does.

For example, Post Boxes (letter boxes), are often DIY affairs. Fences can be corrugated iron, as are a lot of the roofs.

So some/many of the houses look quite old to a Pom.

 

I often think NZ is a lot like the US. The "guy playing the guitar on the front porch" type of feel.

 

 

I'm trying to give you a feel for it. I know how difficult that is because I used to ask people what it was like before we emigrated.

 

But let me be clear. We love this country

 

The people are so friendly. It's quite a culture shock when you first get here. You can be taken aback by the friendliness.

You get on a bus with a pushchair, and teenagers jump up and make space for you.

Teenagers say hello in the street, and they are being genuinely friendly, they aren't about to knife you.

 

One thing that took me a while to get used to was when walking down the street and girls would say hello to me.

That just does not happen (at least to me) in the UK.

 

Some people say NZ is like the UK 30 years ago. And in a good way, that is quite a good way to look at it.

 

Right, I'd better stop. It's sunny AGAIN, so we'd better enjoy the day :D

 

I hope I haven't offended any Kiwis. I'm trying to give my personal view as a migrant, and as someone who feels very very fortunate to be able to live in New Zealand.

 

Oh, just a quick point.

Yes, I think the NZ economy is going to get bad, just like the UK.

So what job you'd need to live must be an important factor. If you are in the building trade, I suggest it might be better to wait for better times.

But I can't think of a better place to be if things turn bad, if you can get by in bad times.

This is one place where people are more likely to pull together than turn the place into mad max country.

Except for South Auckland :D

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hmm, South West of Christchurch is none too pretty either.

 

:lol: :lol:

 

Yeah, like everywhere it's quite varied.

Very industrial, and a bit less nice looking in the south of Christchurch.

Personally I like the northern side much more.

 

Anyone emigrating really needs to drive around to get a feel for it, and choose their own place to settle. It's a very personal thing.

 

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Please don't let me be the only person expressing views. They are just mine, as someone who has only been to the south island !

And the Christchurch area....so far.

 

It would be nice to hear from Kiwis as well, as you'll have the opposite type of experience, leaving home and looking back at it after going overseas.

 

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Just out of interest is there much call for Software Engineers over there?

ABB

 

Are you talking "IT" as in website type stuff, or the "real stuff" ;) like C Java embedded etc ?

 

The answer is generally yes.

 

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Thanks for all the replies,

 

I do like the sound of NZ, and appreciate all the challenges that have been mentioned. If we emigrate, I promise not to be another 'whining pom' :D

 

I will try to have a deeper look at the NZ economy, and perhaps see how NZ intends to turn it around (Alistair Darlings 'Lets fast track the spending of 3 years budget' is not very encouraging for the way the UK intends to handle the problem!)

 

Thanks again, I have plenty to be pondering now :)

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Are you talking "IT" as in website type stuff, or the "real stuff" ;) like C Java embedded etc ?

 

The answer is generally yes.

The latter, though I have minimal embedded.

NZ starts to look like an interesting option, with

its isolation being a definite advantage.

ABB

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There has been a demand for people. NZ immigration give extra points for some careers. That has included the trades, which IMO will turn out to be a disaster given the housing downturn. I think there is still a demand for the educated/qualified professions.

 

I did this for someone a few years ago. It gives an idea of where the jobs are in NZ:

 

Area Job Comparison

http://www.angelfire.com/hi5/neuralnetwrit...comparison.html

 

That's why most people go to Auckland, followed by Wellington and Christchurch.

You'd probably find a whole range of little to big companies interested in your skills.

 

 

This is my huge list of agencies etc.

 

http://www.angelfire.com/hi5/neuralnetwrit...links.html#Jobs

 

which includes things like this:

 

Canterbury Software – Forums, job lists

http://www.canterburysoftware.org.nz

 

which will give you an up to date idea.

 

(Things do change, and I haven't updated my links for a few years)

 

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Thanks for all the great info and links Steve, do you have any links you can recommend for emigration in general? I am particularly fascinated about South America, but have no idea what it might be like to live there

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I did come across one website of someone emigrating from South Africa !

 

There are forums like this, which have a SA section.

http://www.britishexpat.com/expatforum/country/index.php

 

This is a well known one I used to be on a bit:

http://britishexpats.com/forum/

 

I suggest you google something like "emigration south africa forum".

 

I do have loads of stuff on my website. Some of it like UK tax will be relevant.

 

Ha !

This is the guys SA website: http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~metz/nz.htm

I think he went to NZ.

 

 

This is a must read for all migrants

 

Culture Shock - An interesting article on the effects of emigrating and how to help yourself.

http://edweb.sdsu.edu/people/CGuanipa/cultshok.htm

 

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About a year or so ago I spent 3 weeks in Ontario Canada visiting old friends who in truth are as close as family to me. It was more an instant immersion into the summertime culture of Canada rather than a sight seeing tour.

 

My observations were thus ............

 

1) Very little crime and what crime there was tended to be centred in pockets which meant you knew where to avoid. One of my hosts had a cement mixer and building tools out the front of his house for the whole time I was there and when I asked if he was concerned about it being stolen he simply said 'relax, you're in Canada'.

 

2) No-one seemed to be Canadian. Though proud of being Canadian most often after a drink talked of 'home' and where their family came from. I visited a 'English Pub' where they showed football and all the 'usuals' were English and Scottish and desperate for information on what was happening at 'home'.

 

3) Everyone was worried about their job.

 

4) There was a great sense of community within the immediate local environment and I was made to feel not only welcome but almost Godlike and it seemed everyone was desperate for me to join them offering assurances that they'd look after me and my family should we choose to move, which they seemed almost desperate for us to do.

 

5) Space. I appreciate 'peak oil' argument rearding such issues etc. which you'll have to offset with your own calculations but compared to the UK it felt so much less claustraphobic. It did seem however that no-one ever caught a bus or jumped on a pushbike to travel that distance to their local shop. They are very dependant on their own oil fueled transport.

 

6) Shockingly poor night life. Very poor. It felt like a whole swathe of music was passing them by.

 

7) Lack of 'alternative' culture. I/We may complain about 'feral' culture etc in the UK but I can say I missed the individuality, originality and rebeliousness of our youth that, although I/we pour scorn upon them, give such colour to our lives. Longterm, because I'm used to the night noise of a fight kicking off a couple of streets away, or the drama of the police moving in on a local 'dealer' I worry that the silence may be deafening.

 

If you consider moving abroad for whatever reasons good luck to you. This is by no means a criticism of Canada or Canadians ................... I envy many them for many things and my comments are made purely from a personal perspective on the things I'd personally miss.

 

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Suburban Ontario is not exactly a picture of all Canada. I know Ontario through family since my Grandparents lived in Niagara on the Lake and my Mother is a proud Canadian although she has lived in the UK for the last 30 years.

 

What the Canadians and the Americans love about the UK is how quick travel is to places of interest, a 30 minute train trip would be a 24 hour drive over there. They love our history since we have so much of it we tend to take it for granted, Roman, Viking, Kings and Queens etc.

 

At the same whilst liking how close together everything is, they also tend to miss the wide open spaces, decent sized houses with good sized plots.

 

If you want nightlife you go to the city. A good town in the UK has all the nightlife needed, whereas the average town in US / Canada seems to be relatively boring.

 

At the end of the day its about being close to the city, but not in it and just as Dr Bubb often says its all about transportation Hubs - quick rail journey into Toronto. Not forgetting the work situation as well.

 

Personally I would live in or close to Ottowa purely because that is the capital and it is a beautiful city! If you like the French and the Historic feel to a place then Montreal is your place. Be aware both are in the Snow belt, if you prefer the warmth, then Ontario is your place - they also happen to have some of the best wines in the world (my preference), vinyards all over the place - if you like wine visit Niagara.

 

Biggest down side to Canada = Winter lasts a month longer.

 

Or .....

 

Distances you have to travel.

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One thing I've learnt is that no two people will give you the same view, even if they live next door to each other.

Just imagine what you and your neighbour would say about where you live.

That's why I encourage as many views as possible, so you get the widest range of views.

 

I repeat, I'd love to hear what Kiwis abroad think of NZ.

 

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I did come across one website of someone emigrating from South Africa !

 

There are forums like this, which have a SA section.

http://www.britishexpat.com/expatforum/country/index.php

 

This is a well known one I used to be on a bit:

http://britishexpats.com/forum/

 

I suggest you google something like "emigration south africa forum".

 

I do have loads of stuff on my website. Some of it like UK tax will be relevant.

 

Ha !

This is the guys SA website: http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~metz/nz.htm

I think he went to NZ.

 

 

This is a must read for all migrants

 

Culture Shock - An interesting article on the effects of emigrating and how to help yourself.

http://edweb.sdsu.edu/people/CGuanipa/cultshok.htm

 

Have been away from the board for a bit Steve, but thanks for these links which I will take a look at :)

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