GOLD

[HPCsoYESTERDAY]

going further off tangent here (apologies in advance).............

 

To make their own coins 'stand' alongside post 1919 Sterling coins, the Irish govt. minted coins (between 1928 until 1943) containing 75% silver, a higher content than the equivalent British coin. It is believed that this was done so that the new currency would not be seen as a poor substitute to the British currency which circulated alongside. (ref. wiki)

 

and here's an interesting article:

 

http://www.expressandstar.com/2008/04/18/c...on-silver-rush/

 

Cashing in on silver rush

 

It started with a gold rush, and now a Dudley jewellers’ is offering top prices for old English silver coins.

 

Rex Johnson & Son in Birdcage Walk is calling for people to dig out money from decades gone by and cash them in for what could add up to hundreds of pounds.

 

The shop has had queues outside for the last 12 weeks, with people bringing in their old gold chains and watches while the price of gold soars. Now silver is also enjoying a boom, and owner Mr David Johnson is calling on residents to make the most of it and bring in any old coins that have been gathering dust in the bottom of the drawer.

 

He said: “The coins have been coming in by the bucketloads. We are looking for anything from the half-crown, sixpences, shillings, silver threepenny bits like they used to put in the Xmas puddings, two-shilling pieces, or a crown. “We are giving ten times face value for coins pre-1947, so every pound gets ten pounds, and pre-1920 we will give twenty times the original value.

 

“We have had a huge response, particularly from the older generation who have had them in their bottom drawers all these years.”

 

Mr Johnson said the biggest exchange was a woman who brought in her collection of coins and left with £800.

 

He added : “People are quite shocked; they bring in their little packet of coins and go home with over £100.

 

“People have been distracted by the price of gold, but the silver has also been holding a high value as well over this period and, since people have begun realising this, the queues have been doubling outside the shop.”

 

Rex Johnson says it continues to offer top prices for silver and gold at both its Dudley shop and its Birmingham base in Corporation Street, Monday to Saturday.

 

The jewellers are also still on the lookout for gold, the price of which is still soaring.

 

Typical items brought in for valuation and sale included medallion chains, popular in the 1980s but which have now fallen out of fashion, and even sovereign rings – a must-have for young men five-years ago.

 

Mr Johnson said: “It is mainly things they don’t wear anymore or that are broken.”

[romans holiday]

What's the good news?

 

That was the good news!

 

"The current debt-based, fiat-money global economy is in the process of collapse"

[wren]

I'm a little puzzled that it maintains the name "sterling". I would have thought is would be just "pound", or "fiat pound"

I suppose it's to distinguish it from a pound weight or avoirdupois.

 

[id5]

...

 

I'm a little puzzled that it maintains the name "sterling". I would have thought is would be just "pound", or "fiat pound"

 

...

 

I think it should now be referred to as ‘pounded fiat’ or ‘pounded flat’

[Dispassion]

I just got back from a month long break.

 

Has there been any great insights into the direction of the Euro/Dollar or into gold decoupling from it?

I could read all thousand or so, posts, but I'm sure that someone won't mind summarising for me.

[id5]

I suppose it's to distinguish it from a pound weight or avoirdupois.

 

Wren has the right of it.

 

The pound was originally Roman ‘libra pondo’ a pound by weight and where the £ sign comes from as well as lb, one was money the other weight

 

[Steve Netwriter]

Decoupling ? I've been rather skeptical, at least in the short-term.

 

Now this:

 

Friday, September 12, 2008

Baltic Dry Index: Smashed, Global Demand Falling

 

The Baltic Dry Index (BDI) was the last refuge of the last few Bulltards. The argument went something like this: “The US may be in trouble, but the rest of the world isn’t. Look. The Baltic Dry Index is still in an uptrend signaling strong demand overseas.”

 

The Baltic Dry Index was an integral part of the global Decoupling Theory. In December of 2007 I argued it was nothing but GARBAGE. Simplified:

 

“This is a global economy. This is a global credit bubble. This is a global credit crunch. Therefore, the consequences will be GLOBAL.”

 

http://benbittrolff.blogspot.com/2008/09/b...bal-demand.html

 

 

[frizzers]

At one stage it a pound meant a pound of sterling silver. That, I believe, is where the name derives.

[Ret45]

That was the good news!

 

"The current debt-based, fiat-money global economy is in the process of collapse"

 

 

I'm not sure that most people in the western world would agree with you that it is good news. The collapse of the global economy would bring enormous suffering to a lot of people, including GEI members' family and friends (unless you have enough gold salted away to look after them all!). I very much agree that the global economy is built on crumbling foundations and that we seem to be entering a phase of accelerated crisis. But who's to say that the shakeout won't take five or ten years, with plenty of twists and turns along the way. Its a mistake to underestimate human capacity to adapt and innovate in the face of crisis. All empires come to and end, including financial ones, but knowing that doesn't make it any easier to predict their demise with any degree of accuracy.

[HPCsoYESTERDAY]

At one stage it a pound meant a pound of sterling silver. That, I believe, is where the name derives.

 

wiki concurs:

 

'There is some uncertainty as to the origin of the term pound sterling. Some sources say it dates back to Anglo-Saxon times, when coins called sterlings were minted from silver; 240 of these sterlings weighed one pound, and large payments came to be made in "pounds of sterlings".'

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pound_sterling#cite_note-5

 

 

and here is the silver weights of modern (pre 1920) UK coinage:

 

Prior to 1920, British silver coins contained high purity, 92.5% (Sterling) silver. These coins contain the following amounts of actual silver weight:

 

* Threepence (.0420 Troy ounces of actual silver weight)

* Sixpence (.0841 Troy ounces)

(Krause and Mishler's Standard Catalog of World Coins, 19th Century Edition 1801-1900, First Edition, states that the silver content of the sixpence coin was .0895 Troy ounces from 1838-1919, as the weight of this coin slightly increased in 1838, but so far that hasn't been corroborated by other sources.)

* Shilling (.1682 Troy ounces)

* Florin (.3364 Troy ounces)

* Half Crown (.4206 Troy ounces)

* Double Florins (1887-1890) (.6727 Troy ounces)

* Crown (.8409 Troy ounces)

 

http://reviews.ebay.com/British-coins-silv...000000001664130

[id5]

wiki concurs:

 

...

 

and here is the silver weights of modern (pre 1920) UK coinage:

...

(Krause and Mishler's Standard Catalog of World Coins, 19th Century Edition 1801-1900, First Edition, states that the silver content of the sixpence coin was .0895 Troy ounces from 1838-1919, as the weight of this coin slightly increased in 1838, but so far that hasn't been corroborated by other sources.)

...

 

I would ignore wiki on the origins of the pound as there are many historical references that point to its root in 'libra pundo'

 

Your list of silver coins and weights covers the milled coins of the 1800's onwards and does not include the

Four pence coin that existed from 1836 to 1888, with a weight of 1.89g being reduced to 1.87g in 1838

Three half pence that existed from 1834 to 1862 with a weight of 0.7g

Eighteen pence that existed from 1811 to 1816 with a weight of 7.3g

Three Shilling that existed from 1811 to 1816 with an unknown original weight but it was thought to be approximately 15g

Dollar that was minted in 1804

If you want a good, easy reference with all this in try Collectors Coins GB 2008 ISBN: 0948964766 and for the more in depth The Story of British Coinage ISBN 0900652748 or A History of English Money by Albert Feavearyear 1931

 

There is also Maundy silver but I think I have bored you all enough so I am off to brush any dirt from my anorak

[HPCsoYESTERDAY]

I would ignore wiki on the origins of the pound as there are many historical references that point to its root in 'libra pundo'

 

surely both explanations can co-exist?

 

as I was referring to pound Sterling, can it be the case that pound has Roman origin and sterling Anglo-Saxon?

 

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/.../pound-sterling

 

the basic monetary unit of Great Britain, divided (since 1971) decimally into 100 new pence. The term is derived from the fact that, about 775, silver coins known as “sterlings” were issued in the Saxon kingdoms, 240 of them being minted from a pound of silver, the weight of which was probably about equal to the later troy pound. Hence large payments came to be reckoned in “pounds of sterlings,” a phrase later shortened to “pounds sterling.” After the Norman Conquest the pound was divided for accounting purposes into 20 shillings and into 240 pennies, or pence. In medieval Latin documents the words libra, solidus, and denarius were used to denote the pound, shilling, and penny, which gave rise to the use of the symbols £, s., and d.

[Errol]

Govts' moves can't halt commodity rally: Rogers

Newswire18 / Mumbai September 13, 2008

 

Trying to cut out speculators from the commodity futures trade will only decrease liquidity and will not halt a price rise as supply problems persist, investor James B Rogers, popularly known as Jim Rogers, said on Friday.

 

He was speaking on the sidelines of the launch of a commodity-equity fund by Birla Sun Life Mutual Fund.

 

Commenting on the ban on eight commodity futures in India and rising scrutiny of speculators in the US commodity markets, Rogers said, “Governments and politicians do not understand markets and they are making the situation worse by trying to impose controls on the markets.”

 

“Commodity prices will go up whether governments impose controls or not as there is a serious supply-side problem.”

 

He said the bull run in crude oil prices is not over yet and expects prices of sugar, cotton and coffee to rise sharply.

 

“Zinc and silver prices may also witness some upside,” Rogers said. He said despite the fall in gold, he is not selling the yellow metal and will buy more if it falls further.

 

“If you have gold, I will buy it from you. Gold is not something I plan to sell. Ever,” he added. Rogers remained extremely pessimistic on the dollar and said it is a “terribly flawed currency”. It is because of the pessimism of many investors like me that the dollar has suddenly appreciated, he said.

 

“However, it is likely to weaken again and I intend to sell all my holdings in the dollar in the current rally,” he added. Rogers said as the dollar situation is likely to get worse, it will also have a positive effect on commodity prices, which are mostly dollar-denominated.

 

“The commodity’s price will go up no matter where the dollar is. A weak dollar only adds to the rise in prices and is not the major factor,” he added.

 

He expects the dollar to lose its position as the reserve currency of the world soon. “Iran and Venezuela are already not accepting the dollar when they sell oil and even Opec (the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries) is trying to figure out how to deal with a weak dollar,” he said.

 

He said the dollar’s weakness was because of the weak move made by the Federal Reserve and the US government.

 

“It was a horrendous mistake to bail out Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae banks,” Rogers said. “The next thing we know they will be bailing out Lehman Brothers.”

 

According to him, what the government should do is let two-three people collapse, which will help clear out excesses in the system.

 

He said the current recession will help clean up the global economy and then the economies can start growing again.

 

 

 

http://www.business-standard.com/ind...?autono=334277

[Compounded]

I would ignore wiki on the origins of the pound as there are many historical references that point to its root in 'libra pundo'

 

Your list of silver coins and weights covers the milled coins of the 1800's onwards and does not include the

Four pence coin that existed from 1836 to 1888, with a weight of 1.89g being reduced to 1.87g in 1838

Three half pence that existed from 1834 to 1862 with a weight of 0.7g

Eighteen pence that existed from 1811 to 1816 with a weight of 7.3g

Three Shilling that existed from 1811 to 1816 with an unknown original weight but it was thought to be approximately 15g

Dollar that was minted in 1804

If you want a good, easy reference with all this in try Collectors Coins GB 2008 ISBN: 0948964766 and for the more in depth The Story of British Coinage ISBN 0900652748 or A History of English Money by Albert Feavearyear 1931

 

There is also Maundy silver but I think I have bored you all enough so I am off to brush any dirt from my anorak

 

The history of sterling is facinating, I have one of the 4d silver coins, it's tiny like a 3d but thicker.

 

Fiat currency has a poor record and a fiat global reserve currency is IMO a risky unknown never tried before concept.

 

 

[hotairmail]

The history of sterling is facinating, I have one of the 4d silver coins, it's tiny like a 3d but thicker.

 

Fiat currency has a poor record and a fiat global reserve currency is IMO a risky unknown never tried before concept.

 

 

Gold/silver didn't have a great history either with successive debasements of the coinage throughout history.

 

Basically governments want to spend more than they have - especially at times of war when anything goes.

[dom]

I thought i post it here too [its in the podcasts thread too]

 

 

This is the most comprehensive lecture on money by Bruce McCarthy, recorded in 1984 - this man is a very dedicated man who spent all his life uncovering the truth. It is packed with references, and very relevant today.

 

This is a must listen.

 

Webpage

 

http://diametrics.info/audio/

 

Bruce McCarthy's Monetary Reality Seminar

 

Then right click to save as, the parts - its 3.5 hours long.

 

Heres a teaser - did you know there is no such thing as a money?

I've had this on in the car for a few days. It frustrates me that someone who has the intellect to expose one ubiquitous confidence trick so eloquently can fall completely for another - Christianity. There are a few antisemitic jabs in there too, which concern me.

 

[id5]

surely both explanations can co-exist?

...

 

My comment was against the contents of the wiki article on the pound and sterling and the pound sterling.

 

The pound as a word meaning a fixed weight of money had been around since Roman times. In the Anglo-Saxon period Britain used Pennies as well as units, staters, sestertii, dupondii, sceattas, solidus and a few others but not Sterling or shilling.

 

Steoling appeared in Old English to describe coins from the time of the Norman Conquest or the word Sterling used as coin in the reign of Herny II could have come from the German area of Esterling.

 

Therefore Sterling didn't appear until after the Anglo-Saxon period which negates part of the wiki article that you referenced and the article that you have just referenced from the Britannica. Another big problem with both of these articles is the first shilling was not minted in the UK until 1549 in the reign of Edward VI some 500 years after the Norman Conquest.

 

At best both articles are misleading

[HPCsoYESTERDAY]

My comment was against the contents of the wiki article on the pound and sterling and the pound sterling.

 

The pound as a word meaning a fixed weight of money had been around since Roman times. In the Anglo-Saxon period Britain used Pennies as well as units, staters, sestertii, dupondii, sceattas, solidus and a few others but not Sterling or shilling.

 

Steoling appeared in Old English to describe coins from the time of the Norman Conquest or the word Sterling used as coin in the reign of Herny II could have come from the German area of Esterling.

 

Therefore Sterling didn't appear until after the Anglo-Saxon period which negates part of the wiki article that you referenced and the article that you have just referenced from the Britannica. Another big problem with both of these articles is the first shilling was not minted in the UK until 1549 in the reign of Edward VI some 500 years after the Norman Conquest.

 

At best both articles are misleading

 

 

wow - assuming you are correct (and I have no reason to believe otherwise, given the apparent depth of your knowledge) the misinformation out there is terrible concerning the humble origins of our currency!

[notanewmember]

I've had this on in the car for a few days. It frustrates me that someone who has the intellect to expose one ubiquitous confidence trick so eloquently can fall completely for another - Christianity. There are a few antisemitic jabs in there too, which concern me.

 

Its a long podcast, and some of his views are antisemitic, perhaps it was not considered that important back in 1984. Interesting to hear his views on money are echoed by the hard core silver bulls today.

[Steve Netwriter]

My comment was against the contents of the wiki article on the pound and sterling and the pound sterling.

 

The pound as a word meaning a fixed weight of money had been around since Roman times. In the Anglo-Saxon period Britain used Pennies as well as units, staters, sestertii, dupondii, sceattas, solidus and a few others but not Sterling or shilling.

 

Steoling appeared in Old English to describe coins from the time of the Norman Conquest or the word Sterling used as coin in the reign of Herny II could have come from the German area of Esterling.

 

Therefore Sterling didn't appear until after the Anglo-Saxon period which negates part of the wiki article that you referenced and the article that you have just referenced from the Britannica. Another big problem with both of these articles is the first shilling was not minted in the UK until 1549 in the reign of Edward VI some 500 years after the Norman Conquest.

 

At best both articles are misleading

 

I have retired my anorak. You put me to shame

 

I wonder whether you would like to contribute a little (if only a copy of your post) to this thread:

 

The History of Gold

And why it makes a good money

http://www.greenenergyinvestors.com/index.php?showtopic=3963

 

Maybe I should expand the title to "The History of Money".

 

IMO a better understanding of history would be helpful. Specially to me.

 

[G0ldfinger]

...

The pound as a word meaning a fixed weight of money had been around since Roman times. In the Anglo-Saxon period Britain used Pennies as well as units, staters, sestertii, dupondii, sceattas, solidus and a few others but not Sterling or shilling.

...

A little off-topic, but the Aureus is basically a Sovereign.

[romans holiday]

I'm not sure that most people in the western world would agree with you that it is good news. The collapse of the global economy would bring enormous suffering to a lot of people, including GEI members' family and friends (unless you have enough gold salted away to look after them all!). I very much agree that the global economy is built on crumbling foundations and that we seem to be entering a phase of accelerated crisis. But who's to say that the shakeout won't take five or ten years, with plenty of twists and turns along the way. Its a mistake to underestimate human capacity to adapt and innovate in the face of crisis. All empires come to and end, including financial ones, but knowing that doesn't make it any easier to predict their demise with any degree of accuracy.

 

I would be worried if most people in the western world did agree with me.

 

It is good news because a fundamentally unsound and unjust debt-based economic system is in the process of collapse. Most people in the western world were becoming little better than serfs trapped in a lifetime of debt. Like yourself, I consider people capable of rising to the occasion.... stiff upper lip and all that. A bit of hardship will test the mettle of our character and old virtues will be rediscovered. A collapse of the financial system would undoubtedly bring some hardship and suffering, but I doubt it will bring the madmax fantasies of paranoids.

[frizzers]

The conversation between Jim Puplava and Frank Barbera making up the first hour of pt 3 of this week's Financial Sense is excellent :

 

http://www.financialsense.com/fsn/main.html

 

Also this blog is very good. Only two entries but both very long, well informed and well written:

 

http://parcontre.blogspot.com/

[Ret45]

I would be worried if most people in the western world did agree with me.

 

It is good news because a fundamentally unsound and unjust debt-based economic system is in the process of collapse. Most people in the western world were becoming little better than serfs trapped in a lifetime of debt. Like yourself, I consider people capable of rising to the occasion.... stiff upper lip and all that. A bit of hardship will test the mettle of our character and old virtues will be rediscovered. A collapse of the financial system would undoubtedly bring some hardship and suffering. I doubt it will bring the madmax fantasies of paranoids.

 

 

I think you are right in that a collapse of the current economic system will force society to fundamentally question and reject the debt-based system (I'm not sure previous systems were much better - such as class based systems where the majority were poor and never tried to compete with their 'betters'). But if we are talking about people losing faith in fiat then its going to take a long time, perhaps years of rampant inflation before people realise that that the system is broken, and years more before they come up with something better (what else is there - a return to the gold standard?). A lot of the doomsday stuff - git a gun and stock up on tinned soup everybody - is more wishful thinking then anything else.

 

 

[Compounded]

I'm not sure that most people in the western world would agree with you that it is good news. The collapse of the global economy would bring enormous suffering to a lot of people, including GEI members' family and friends (unless you have enough gold salted away to look after them all!). I very much agree that the global economy is built on crumbling foundations and that we seem to be entering a phase of accelerated crisis. But who's to say that the shakeout won't take five or ten years, with plenty of twists and turns along the way. Its a mistake to underestimate human capacity to adapt and innovate in the face of crisis. All empires come to and end, including financial ones, but knowing that doesn't make it any easier to predict their demise with any degree of accuracy.

 

ie Keep 10% in gold and hope it does not perform.

 

I would be happy if my gold loses value and this crisis passes.

 

I suspect not many have made a fortune just by owning gold, but believe many have preserved wealth in previous clamities by owning gold.