GOLD

[BelfastBoy]

...I'd like to know if owning bullion, through online bullions vaults or the actual physical thing is also CGT exempt. I keep seeing contradictory statements on that matter, which is annoying. Thanks!

The only bullion that is CGT exempt are gold Britannias and Sovereigns. Are silver coins CGT exempt?

 

Some dealers will allow you to store coins in their vaults using 'allocated' accounts. Of course you will increase your counterparty risk by doing this. But then there are certain other risks with having large amounts of bullion coins in your personal possesion.

[warpig]

Yes silver Britannias are also CGT exempt.

 

Are silver coins CGT exempt?

[azazel]

Thanks for the advice. I don't quite have enough money for 100 sovs

 

azazel, any reason why you prefer sovs?

 

 

I like them as they are about 1/4 of an ounce and so a more reasonable size and value thus more affordable in that sized unit. They are also CGT exempt. There is no VAT to pay on gold at all. You can "make" over £10,000 without paying tax due to your allowance, and double that if you are married so depending on the gain, you might not have to pay any tax on a £20 grand investment anyway.

[malvern hills]

I hate the thought of having to pay a 'luxury ' tax to buy silver, and paying CGT, fuggetaboutit.

 

I've bought my physical abroad and kept it in a bank safe. I'm also not into the buying of small denominations for barter etc. It ain't gonna happen, so why pay an extra?

[pondlife]

I hate the thought of having to pay a 'luxury ' tax to buy silver, and paying CGT, fuggetaboutit.

 

I've bought my physical abroad and kept it in a bank safe. I'm also not into the buying of small denominations for barter etc. It ain't gonna happen, so why pay an extra?

Yeah if societal collapse does happen aint much that will be worth anything save food, fuel and guns and ammo. If however we are 'only' faced with a hyper-inflationary depression a few Sovereigns might just be worth their weight in...er....gold.

[Jake]

I hate the thought of having to pay a 'luxury ' tax to buy silver, and paying CGT, fuggetaboutit.

 

I've bought my physical abroad and kept it in a bank safe. I'm also not into the buying of small denominations for barter etc. It ain't gonna happen, so why pay an extra?

How do you know 'it ain't gonna happen'?

 

''When they fail because they are essentially credit money systems then credit must fail too. It almost did in 2008. When credit fails the economy ceases to function. What that means is that food doesn’t get delivered to grocery stores; petrol isn’t transported to the gas stations;

even water and natural gas are cut off by the companies responsible for their delivery; the banking system collapses; governments cease to function and anarchy prevails.'' Sound like fun?

 

Ian Gordon-Longwave.

 

I understand with your feelings towards VAT and CGT on silver though. However if you foresee, for eg, Alf Fields' target of 158 (USD) for silver, then what's a little tax now on a bit of silver?

[HPCsoYESTERDAY]

pre 20 (925) & pre 47 (500) uk silver coins vat free - plenty of bulk sales on ebay with protection of 500 squid per sale when using paypal

 

plenty of other coins as well, eg. pre 65 US silver coinage is 90% ag*

 

*except nickels which are erm nickel

[halight]

Sure has been a while since I posted here

 

 

I haven't had much need to check up on the financial world for about a year now, if you check my posts you'll see that late 2010 I was making a nice bit of money in the stock market.

Early 2011 (pre-crash) I sold up and bought a nice house in a good location, discounted by a nice chunk and with a great fixed mortgage.

After that I had no money left to invest.. so no need to look into it.

However I now have quite a bit of money once again, and the thought of putting it back in the stock market doesn't seem like a good one. I fully expect a large crash soon. It's now just sitting in my bank..

 

That said - I want to invest once again in gold/silver, only this time physical rather than something like bullionvault, as I think we're closer to endgame now.

 

This will be the first time I've actually purchased physical. Do you guys have any tips? Ie : what size bars, coins, websites, countries (guernsey vat free?), ebay?

 

Cheers

 

 

Iv got a bullion vault account, I have found them to be a very easy way to invest in Gold. the sites ver easy to use. I have been told that Gold money is also easy.

 

I own a few Gold Sovs, and some 1oz silver eagals. Owning coins or bars means that t=you have them in your hand. It would be quick to seel them if you need the money fast. You will ahve to go out and sell them, or use someplace like ebay. With bullionvault you can seel or buy Gold/silver 24 hrs a day. More money into/out of your account.

If you are going to keep coins at home then make sure that you have somewere safe to keep them and that you are coved incase you get a break in. Alsdo when buying coins you will pay a % above spot price.

im not someone who will say that there is a right way wrong way to own gold/silver, Its really upto whats best for you.

[malvern hills]

How do you know 'it ain't gonna happen'?

 

''When they fail because they are essentially credit money systems then credit must fail too. It almost did in 2008. When credit fails the economy ceases to function. What that means is that food doesn’t get delivered to grocery stores; petrol isn’t transported to the gas stations;

even water and natural gas are cut off by the companies responsible for their delivery; the banking system collapses; governments cease to function and anarchy prevails.'' Sound like fun?

 

Ian Gordon-Longwave.

 

I understand with your feelings towards VAT and CGT on silver though. However if you foresee, for eg, Alf Fields' target of 158 (USD) for silver, then what's a little tax now on a bit of silver?

 

As GF says "when the ponzi promises to deliver an asset they they themselves can print then that is what they will do"

 

You are saying that when credit fails no one is going to turn up to work.

Think about it for a moment. Everyone who doesn't deliver has a family as well. People will soon realise they will have ( or be coerced)to cooperate with the people in power, ie the ones with the guns and tear gas.

And in any case this is going to take a long time to play out, probably more than 3 decades, if it goes down that road atall.

If in that time I think the poop is getting real I will convert some of the bullion for smaller denominations, and move the bulk into a private rather than bank vault, if I think that is appropriate.

 

All in all, preparing for and thinking about realistic scenarios is a much better use of my time than for extreme outliers ihmo.

 

I wouldn't like to be in Amerika with all those guns around though.

[warpig]

Interesting time frame. I think it has less than 3 years and I think that's being generous...

 

And in any case this is going to take a long time to play out, probably more than 3 decades, if it goes down that road atall.

[BelfastBoy]

I'm also not into the buying of small denominations for barter etc. It ain't gonna happen, so why pay an extra?

History shows that all 'fiat' monetary systems fail. Though I don't think history has ever shown that monetary failure will result in complete social collapse.

 

I'm thinking there will be a slow adjustment rather than an instant reset. The system will bump along. The majority will slowly see their living standards fall. It will be so subtle that they will simply adjust and get on with life. Most will never realise what has happened. Everyone around them will be in the same situation too. It is already happening. IMO this is just going to be another great depression. My time frame for the adjustment is 2 decades. We are already 5 years into the adjustment that started in 2007.

[fadeaway]

History shows that all 'fiat' monetary systems fail. Though I don't think history has ever shown that monetary failure will result in complete social collapse.

 

According to a study of 775 fiat currencies by DollarDaze.org, there is no historical precedence for a fiat currency that has succeeded in holding its value. Twenty percent failed through hyperinflation, 21% were destroyed by war, 12% destroyed by independence, 24% were monetarily reformed, and 23% are still in circulation approaching one of the other outcomes.

[malvern hills]

Interesting time frame. I think it has less than 3 years and I think that's being generous...

We are talking about the total collapse in confidence in the value of paper fiat currency; a currency or system of currencies backed by almost every nation in the world and their hired thugs and propagandists.

 

If there was a instantaneous realization by the peoples of the world as to the destruction of value going on then perhaps we would get a hyperinflation sooner, but I think it more likely we will get what Belfast says below.

 

History shows that all 'fiat' monetary systems fail. Though I don't think history has ever shown that monetary failure will result in complete social collapse.

 

I'm thinking there will be a slow adjustment rather than an instant reset. The system will bump along. The majority will slowly see their living standards fall. It will be so subtle that they will simply adjust and get on with life. Most will never realise what has happened. Everyone around them will be in the same situation too. It is already happening. IMO this is just going to be another great depression. My time frame for the adjustment is 2 decades. We are already 5 years into the adjustment that started in 2007.

[warpig]

This should put things in to perspective.

 

[drbubb]

JS's latest big of scaremongering has failed to push gold higher

 

GLD ... update

 

The latest ramping effort from JS was Jan 30th, just before Gold's most recent peak:

 

Here's a neat little piece of half-hearted scaremongering by Jim Sinclair

 

He's says that ISDA's impedning decision (on declaring a default or not by ISDA) threatens to bankrupt 5 big banks, who he says "hold 97% of the liabilities" behind the outstanding CDS's backing Greek debt.

 

http://www.jsmineset.com/2012/01/30/the-impending-undeclared-default-of-5-major-us-banks/

 

Here are the stakes, which he never explains clearly:

 

Some portion (?) of the Greek debt of EUR xx Billion is backed by Credit Default Swaps (CDS) issued by big Global banks. ISDA was to make a decision about whether or not the proposed 70% haircut being forced on the private creditors was an event-of-default-which-triggers-payment on the outstanding CDS obligations relating to Greek debt.

 

Since ISDA* makes the decision, they are likely to make one that least harms its members (the big banks).

 

What will their decision be?

ISDA has already said that a voluntary reorg is not an event of default.

(see: http://video.cnbc.com/gallery/?video=3000053670 )

The upshot would be banks and hedge funds holding CDS on Greek debt, would get no payout on those CDS, because default has not been declared.

 

But that may not be the end of it. I expect that some hedge funds holding CDS insurance will take this potentially biased decision to court eventually.

=== === ====

 

*Why might I understand this better than JS:

First of all, as often happens: he is tongue-tied (intentionally or unintentionallly) in discussing some complex financial structures.

 

Secondly, Years ago when I worked at Chase, my boss was R-- S--, and his non Chase job was Chairman of ISDA, so I have some insight into how ISDA operates, from having seen his decision-making up close. (There's a book out there someplace about derivatives, for which he was Editor, and I contributed a chapter.)

 

It turns out that the size of the net risk for banks is about $3 Billion, according to the IFR, which is not a scary amount at all.

 

Gold still has the possibility to breakout over $1765. But it also could soon fall back below where it jumped on the Fed's announcement that it will keep rates low until late 2014. It is now in a neutral zone, awaiting its next big news. If it can hold here a few more days, I would expect it to retest the recent highs.

[halight]

Abandoning the dollar for gold

 

Jan Skoyles looks at the recent stories of countries abandoning the dollar for gold in international transactions. This will have implications for the gold price, but will it have an impact on further debates involving the gold standard. At The Real Asset Co we promote a return to sound money and so developments such as those discussed below always grab our attention.

 

Last month the papers were full of reports stating Iran had agreed to sell their oil to India in exchange for gold. The agreement to trade in gold sidesteps the sanctions issued by the EU and US law which prohibit all new oil contracts and have frozen the Iranian central bank’s assets in the EU. Soon after the India/Iran story there were reports of both Russia and China making similar deals with the Iranians.

 

This isn’t the first time international payment agreements have been rumoured to be taking place. In 2009, there were reports of the Arab states, along with Russia, China, Japan and strangely, France, to start trading oil using a new basket of currencies. This basket was rumoured to include the Japanese yen and Chinese Yuan, the euro, a new, single currency planned for nations in the Gulf Co-operation Council and of course, gold.

 

Nothing has come to light in any of these instances. But such rumours do impact upon both the gold price and further discussions of a return to some form of the gold standard.

 

Gold tactics

 

These sanctions on Iran are also not new ‘nor is the use of gold as a response to certain actions.

 

Back in late 1979, Iranian student Revolutionary Guards stormed the US Embassy, in Tehran, taking several US Hostages. The Americans responded by freezing Iran’s gold which was held in Fort Knox. The Iranians responded by panic buying gold from Zurich. The freezing of gold assets by the US Federal Reserve made other countries realise their gold was no longer safe, sparking a gold buying spree by the Middle East. This was enough to push the gold price above $850.

 

This act of lawlessness by the Iranian Revolutionary Guards was of course wrong – in the same way starting a nuclear war would be wrong. However the actions by the US government in 1979 was also wrong, as it is today for both the US and the EU to implement sanctions. They may, possibly, prevent a nuclear war, but an economic war seems likely.

 

This reoccurring issue of abandoning the US dollar, in order to push a political motive, for another national currency, a basket of currencies or even gold raises the question of whether it is ever a sensible idea to have one national currency as the international reserve currency.

 

Bad money

 

Canadian economist Robert Mundell argues no national currency should ever be used as a leading reserve currency. He argues precious metals were used as international money over the centuries ‘because they were more efficient than other instruments in fulfilling the required functions of money.’ Mundell goes onto argue that currencies which are controlled at the whim of a government tend to weaken over the long term as supply begins to outweigh demand.

 

For Mundell, currencies in which there are opportunities to exploit and overvalue due to the monopoly of government, is ‘bad’ money. This has been no more the case than with the United States and the dollar. It now seems countries which are growing rapidly and have significant trading weight, are rapidly losing confidence in the US dollar and beginning to realise there is an alternative.

 

Paul Fabra states that whichever country’s fiat money you use, it will be dangerous; ‘in a world where real money is replaced by fiat money and monetary reserves increasingly consist of other countries’ fiat money, the monetary system resembles a house of cards.’

 

To have power of a monetary system is to remove democratic rights from those participating in that monetary system. This applies to both citizens of the currency and those who trade with them.

 

Gold money is danger money

 

For those who abandon the US Dollar in the oil trade, the future does not look bright. In 2003 a Middle Eastern oil producing nation abandoned the dollar in favour of the Euro. A few months after their president joyously announced his decision the Brits and American invaded, toppling Saddam Hussein from power. It was not long after this Iran, in 2009, also announced their foreign currency reserves would also be kept in euros, rather than US dollars. Is this how wars begin? Is it in fact not about human rights or oil but is in fact about whose currencies are the toughest?

 

There are reportedly other factors at work here, which are apparently the cause of these currency wars – namely the nuclear threat from Iran. But it is worth discussing the undemocratic nature of using a country’s currency as an international currency.

 

The Gold Standard of currencies

 

The Libertarian Dr Tim Baker once said to me, he doesn’t know which currency is the right one but whatever currency is chosen by the people is the correct one. This was no more the case than is seen in the period of the Classical Gold Standard.

 

The Classical Gold Standard is the most famous commodity standard in history. The decision to move onto the gold standard around the late 1870s was not the result of an international treaty or summit as we so often see on the news. There were no group photos taken of our great leaders announcing they had decided on this brand new way to trade. No, it happened gradually and by choice.

 

Great Britain, at the time was the great economic and political power, and had operated on a gold standard ever since 1717. By 1880 Great Britain’s trading partners had realised that due to the influence and power of the Commonwealth, it would be advantageous to move from their own metallic standards to what is now known as the Classical Gold Standard.

 

We then saw the US take advantage of its position as the wealthiest, least scathed country to come out of both World Wars. This was its opportunity to exert its power over the global financial system. Through several stages, the Americans removed gold completely from the international monetary system.

 

Now, with their trillion dollars of debt and more supply to meet demand – the house of cards that is dominated by the joker US dollar is beginning to wobble.

 

Gold powers

 

As we alluded to in a recent article, the Chinese economy has astonished us all with their economic performance since the 1970s. The majority of the measures which useless economic groups such as the WEF use to assess countries, are met by the Chinese.

 

The Chinese are hoarding gold, they’re rumoured to be partaking in gold payments with Iran. Are we beginning to see the next stage of a global currency change? These countries, Iran, India, China and Russia have a lot of what we want – oil and manufactured goods.

 

It is also worth noting, Venezuela has, in the last week, received the last of its $11bn worth of repatriated gold. The head of Venezuela’s Central Bank told the press on Monday, “ [during periods] of global financial crisis and turmoil in the developed economic centres, gold becomes one of the principal safe assets because it is the only means of international payment that has its own intrinsic value — in other words it is not a debt of other countries.”

 

The relationship between Chavez and the US is commonly known to not be a good one. Chavez once famously stated, ‘I hereby accuse the North American empire of being the biggest menace to our planet.’ His moves to repatriate the country’s gold may be seen to be making a point to the American government, which has long coerced the South American continent, but is Chavez also making a savvy move towards self-sufficiency.

 

Gold and democracy

 

Gold is a way of expressing your democratic right – your right to choose- why should these countries operate with the US Dollar as the reserve currency? Growing economic powers such as China are likely to become the next world leaders, if they’re preparing to abandon a national currency for gold then maybe we’re beginning to see a second phase of the a gold standard. History repeats.

 

 

http://therealasset.co.uk/abandoning-the-dollar-for-gold/

[Errol]

Not Buying Yet - Gold and Silver To Dip A Little More? - http://www.tfmetalsreport.com/blog/3372/no-buying-yet-gold-and-silver-dip-little-more

 

And also, this interview is a good read:

 

Peter Schiff Speaks to James Rickards: Author of Currency Wars - http://www.321gold.com/editorials/schiff/schiff021012.html

[Manual labourer]

Hi GF,

 

This is important your message box is full I have an important pivate message for you please could you make space ?

 

Regards

 

ML

[G0ldfinger]

Cleaned out now.

Hi GF,

 

This is important your message box is full I have an important pivate message for you please could you make space ?

 

Regards

 

ML

[halight]

This might be worth reading to anyone who has mining shares,

 

Link.....http://goldnews.bullionvault.com/gold_mining_020920126

 

New Tax Could Threaten Gold Mining in Tanzania - 9 February 2012

 

 

FOREIGN EXCHANGE earnings from Gold Mining operations have overtaken those from tourism in Tanzania, according to the latest government data.

 

Rising Gold Prices have led to the value of gold exports quadrupling over the past six years to $2 billion. There are now however calls for Gold Mining firms to pay more tax to the Tanzanian government.

 

"Tanzanians look at the Gold Price and think the country should get more out of it," Sebastian Spio-Garbrah, managing director and chief analyst at consultancy DaMina Advisors, tells the Financial Times.

 

In common with a number of African governments, Tanzania is looking at ways of extracting more money from its Gold Mining industry, with the 2010 Mining Act proposing to raise the tax on gold production royalties from 3% to 4%.

 

"Almost all African countries are changing their mining laws and making them tighter," says Spio-Garbah.

 

"It's nothing out of the ordinary."

 

The Tanzania Mining Report, published last week by Business Monitor International, predicts that Gold Mining in Tanzania could be poised for strong growth.

 

"Growth of Gold Mining, which has slowed down in recent years would recover and post strong growth in 2013," the report says.

 

"Much of this growth will be driven by African Barrick Gold, which has four projects in the country [but] poor infrastructure could be a significant obstacle on production growth and may see projects delayed."

 

BMI's report also says that higher taxes could see Gold Mining firms concentrate their efforts on other parts of Africa.

 

"Tax rises, combined with lack of adequate infrastructure and the absence of huge mineral deposits compared with many of its neighbors could push investors elsewhere on the continent," the report says.

 

"We have heard that before, haven't we?" responds Tundu Lussu, and environmental lawyer who has done extensive research on the Gold Mining industry.

 

"Investors in mining will be taxed like everybody else and if that makes the sector less attractive to them then they’d choose between staying and paying fairly or leave and stop the raping of our non-renewable resources."

 

Elsewhere in Africa, Congolese delegates at a Gold Mining conference being held in Cape Town this week were abducted and beaten, Bloomberg reports. At least five people were attacked by men protesting Congo's election results.

 

To get the safest Allocated Gold bullion – stored in secure professional vaults and which you own outright – visit BullionVau

 

Please visit the bullionvault website for more storys like this one.

[Carlton]

To get the safest Allocated Gold bullion

...get the metal into your hands and then place it someplace only you, and/or your trusted confidants, know about.

 

This is not difficult.

[malvern hills]

...get the metal into your hands and then place it someplace only you, and/or your trusted confidants, know about.

 

This is not difficult.

So that only you and your confidant know when its been stolen?

 

I hope you are talking about a secure facility with insurance. Otherwise it will be confiscated or illegal to trade anyway. If Mad Max happens you and me are fooked unless we are able and willing to use a gun. Keep a little hidden and a lot where it is safe, I say.

[50sQuiff]

So that only you and your confidant know when its been stolen?

 

I hope you are talking about a secure facility with insurance. Otherwise it will be confiscated or illegal to trade anyway. If Mad Max happens you and me are fooked unless we are able and willing to use a gun. Keep a little hidden and a lot where it is safe, I say.

 

If we start confiscating gold in Britain, we'll destroy the reputation earned over what - 400 years? - for respecting financial property rights in the City. That means no CNY trading hub for the Chinese, no more LCH.Clearnet, LIFFE, LME, LBMA, no more investment banking and no more scared billionaires seeking safe-haven. In the words we'll destroy the only remaining 'industry' in which we're a global powerhouse. Britain will never ever harm its banksters.

 

There are places to store your private property that have survived two world wars without so much as a broken hinge, so I don't even think a 'Mad Max' scenario is a threat to your stash. I'd be more worried about corrupt or incapable police officers on fishing expeditions. After Operation Rize I wouldn't trust the Met police for example, so my gold is in the City of London.

[malvern hills]

If we start confiscating gold in Britain, we'll destroy the reputation earned over what - 400 years? - for respecting financial property rights in the City. That means no CNY trading hub for the Chinese, no more LCH.Clearnet, LIFFE, LME, LBMA, no more investment banking and no more scared billionaires seeking safe-haven. In the words we'll destroy the only remaining 'industry' in which we're a global powerhouse. Britain will never ever harm its banksters.

 

There are places to store your private property that have survived two world wars without so much as a broken hinge, so I don't even think a 'Mad Max' scenario is a threat to your stash. I'd be more worried about corrupt or incapable police officers on fishing expeditions. After Operation Rize I wouldn't trust the Met police for example, so my gold is in the City of London.

 

I agree, that's why mine is in a vault in a small landlocked European country, where I can freely buy and sell at 0.5% commission.

[G0ldfinger]

If we start confiscating gold in Britain, we'll destroy the reputation earned over what - 400 years? - for respecting financial property rights in the City. That means no CNY trading hub for the Chinese, no more LCH.Clearnet, LIFFE, LME, LBMA, no more investment banking and no more scared billionaires seeking safe-haven. In the words we'll destroy the only remaining 'industry' in which we're a global powerhouse. Britain will never ever harm its banksters.

+1.

 

As for SIPPs or similar, I am not so sure what they will come up with to make life difficult.