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Pension funds buy government bonds. Wiping them out would cause one of the main purchasers of government bonds to be removed.

I don't see the problem: force everyone to pay into a pension scheme, force all pension schemes to buy government bonds, give all these bonds a healthy haircut (or, the same, super-duper low interest, i.e. charge more than is fair) --> money has been robbed from the people, and that is all what it should do. So, it will work.

 

This raid of the sheeple must be administered*: the financial services industry will be happy to help and will pay themselves large bonuses. Mission accomplished.

 

*Imagine all the work it would cause the financial services industry to funnel all SIPPs back into government bonds. I see huge bonuses coming!

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You can be sure that wherever there is a big pot of money, there are several sets of greedy eyes watching over it and scheming how to get their gruubby hands on it.

 

However, a wholesale confiscation of ISA's SIPPs etc.is something different altogether. It would be difficult to accomplish for the reasons I stated in the last post.

 

 

There is no pot of money. It is a true lie. Please call pensions for what they are - Ponzi scemes.

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There is no pot of money. It is a true lie. Please call pensions for what they are - Ponzi scemes.

Regarding state pensions, social security, it's a big pot of debt, and many would like to get rid of it.

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There is no pot of money. It is a true lie. Please call pensions for what they are - Ponzi scemes.

 

It depends which pension schemes you are talking about. Some pension schemes (e.g. NHS) are unfunded and will have to be paid by the tax payer. They are unaffordable and will place a great strain on the pubilc sector budget.

 

Some pension schemes are funded. For example a SIPP or a stakeholder pension in which the policyholder buys a range of investments. When it comes time to retire, the policyholder sells the investments to provide a POT OF MONEY with which to purchase an annuity (unless he goes for the income drawdown option).

 

Company pensions work in the same way. They invest in order to be able to pay employees when they retire. In that respect they have a large pool of investments. The income and returns on these investments enable them to pay their retired employees. In this respect, the pool of investments represent the POT OF MONEY.

 

It is possible that some funded pension schemes can run into difficulty but in the main they are fully funded. It is the UNFUNDED pension schemes that have some of the ponzi scheme attributes but the tax payer is expected to pick up the bill.

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I don't see the problem: force everyone to pay into a pension scheme, force all pension schemes to buy government bonds, give all these bonds a healthy haircut (or, the same, super-duper low interest, i.e. charge more than is fair) --> money has been robbed from the people, and that is all what it should do. So, it will work.

 

This raid of the sheeple must be administered*: the financial services industry will be happy to help and will pay themselves large bonuses. Mission accomplished.

 

*Imagine all the work it would cause the financial services industry to funnel all SIPPs back into government bonds. I see huge bonuses coming!

 

Whilst all this capital is flowing out of other markets into government bonds, these other markets would tank. The stockmarket, corporate bonds, property, PM's (to a lesser extent); and anything else that the pension funds currently invest in. The economy would also tank shortly after.

 

I presume the aim of this also would be to get all pension debt into pound sterling and then inflate the debt away - very high inflation.

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It depends which pension schemes you are talking about. Some pension schemes (e.g. NHS) are unfunded and will have to be paid by the tax payer. They are unaffordable and will place a great strain on the pubilc sector budget.

 

Some pension schemes are funded. For example a SIPP or a stakeholder pension in which the policyholder buys a range of investments. When it comes time to retire, the policyholder sells the investments to provide a POT OF MONEY with which to purchase an annuity (unless he goes for the income drawdown option).

 

Company pensions work in the same way. They invest in order to be able to pay employees when they retire. In that respect they have a large pool of investments. The income and returns on these investments enable them to pay their retired employees. In this respect, the pool of investments represent the POT OF MONEY.

 

It is possible that some funded pension schemes can run into difficulty but in the main they are fully funded. It is the UNFUNDED pension schemes that have some of the ponzi scheme attributes but the tax payer is expected to pick up the bill.

 

Yes, but is a representation of a pot of money actually a pot of money?

 

....or an IOU?

 

 

 

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Beautifully orchestrated, also in silver and oil.

 

But it already looks like a fail, because you can't print oil.

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It depends which pension schemes you are talking about. Some pension schemes (e.g. NHS) are unfunded and will have to be paid by the tax payer. They are unaffordable and will place a great strain on the pubilc sector budget.

 

Some pension schemes are funded. For example a SIPP or a stakeholder pension in which the policyholder buys a range of investments. When it comes time to retire, the policyholder sells the investments to provide a POT OF MONEY with which to purchase an annuity (unless he goes for the income drawdown option).

 

Company pensions work in the same way. They invest in order to be able to pay employees when they retire. In that respect they have a large pool of investments. The income and returns on these investments enable them to pay their retired employees. In this respect, the pool of investments represent the POT OF MONEY.

 

It is possible that some funded pension schemes can run into difficulty but in the main they are fully funded. It is the UNFUNDED pension schemes that have some of the ponzi scheme attributes but the tax payer is expected to pick up the bill.

 

 

Keynesian economics and all the above explanation are made for each other.

 

I used to believe all these explanations..yada yada. Finally when I saw the light, it was all clear. Read 'A world in Debt' by Freeman Tilden - Published in the height of the great depression. You would be surprised how similar the situation was then, like today. However, today I much worse.

 

All the pool of money or whatever you call 'assets' are not what they claim they are. Nuff' said.

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As indicated below, we had a quick bounce back.

 

People want the real thing. The paper shenanigans don't work so well anymore.

 

Who wants some paper silver? Paper food anyone? :lol:

 

Beautifully orchestrated, also in silver and oil.

 

But it already looks like a fail, because you can't print oil.

 

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Keynesian economics and all the above explanation are made for each other.

 

I used to believe all these explanations..yada yada. Finally when I saw the light, it was all clear. Read 'A world in Debt' by Freeman Tilden - Published in the height of the great depression. You would be surprised how similar the situation was then, like today. However, today I much worse.

 

All the pool of money or whatever you call 'assets' are not what they claim they are. Nuff' said.

 

Equity ISA/SIPP - similar to a share account. You buy shares and other investments which are held in the account. These are fully funded because you fund them yourself! These are NOT ponzi schemes and it has

nothing to do with Keynsian economics.

 

Stakeholder Pension Funds/Private Pension Funds - similar to SIPPs except that people tend to use the default option. This ends up with people holding a lot of investments that they might prefer not to invest in if they could be bothered to find out more.

 

Company Pension Funds - final salary private pension funds are decreasing in number. Other, money purchase pension funds, are replacing them. These funds are run by trustees and an annual report is issued that breaks down the investments of the fund and the performance of the investments. Tend to be a bit more opaque but not ponzi.

 

State Pension - Unfunded and paid for by the tax payer. These have aspects of a ponzi scheme when a population is aging (UK currently). Less tax payers more claimants.

 

Public sector unfunded pension schemes - Same as State Pension - aspects of a ponzi scheme and potentially crippling to the public sector finances.

 

Not all animals are equal.

 

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Galactic Gold: A Valentine Story

 

link

 

 

Ever wonder where the gold in your wedding ring came from? This Valentine's Day, we ask Neil deGrasse Tyson, director of New York City's Hayden Planetarium, to explain the history of the rare element.

 

In the Beginning

 

According to Tyson, author of Death by Black Hole and Other Cosmic Quandries, all gold on Earth started out in the center of a star; he says stars are "in the business of cosmic alchemy."

 

When the universe began, there were only two kinds of atoms: hydrogen, which has one proton, and helium, which has two protons.

 

The problem was that hydrogen and helium couldn't combine to make a new kind of atom of three, four or five protons. The two atoms resisted each other because they were the same charge.

 

Unless, of course, it got very, very hot. How much heat would it take to get two protons to sit together?

 

About 10 million degrees, Tyson says. And that's where stars come in.

Fiery Fusion

 

Stars like our sun are so hot that protons collide with such force and have no choice but to combine. It's called fusion. Inside the sun's furnace, protons turn into heavier and heavier atoms: Hydrogen atoms combine to become helium, and then those helium atoms combine to become carbon.

 

"It keeps going," Tyson says. "Carbon and oxygen and nitrogen and silicon, and [fusion] just plows its way up the periodic table of elements."

 

Carbon has six protons, nitrogen seven protons, oxygen eight protons. A hot star can cook all the way up to iron, a 26-proton atom. But that's where it stops.

 

"When you reach iron, nobody can do anything… It's dead matter. You can't fusion it. You can't fission i"," Tyson explains.

 

Once a star has converted all its atoms into iron, it's out of fuel.

 

"That's a bad day for the star," Tyson says. "And at that moment, the entire star collapses, and in that collapse, the star reaches stratospheric temperatures and blows its guts to smithereens."

The Collapsing Star

 

A collapsing star is called a supernova. The explosion is so powerful and cataclysmic that you can see it across the universe.

 

Supernovae outshine whole galaxies, because the atoms inside are colliding furiously, creating intense heat — hundreds of millions of degrees.

 

Only in a supernova is it possible to create atoms with 30 protons, 40 protons, 50 protons or even 60 protons. Nature prefers even numbers for stability, but every so often, the star will forge an odd-numbered atom, a real rarity: gold!

 

Gold is a rare, odd-numbered atom with 79 protons. For every single gold atom in the universe, there are 1 million iron atoms, Tyson says.

A Long Journey

 

After the explosion, those few gold atoms are cast deep into the universe where they sit in empty space for eons. Eventually, some of the atoms may join a cloud. That cloud may condense into a planet.

 

Once inside a planet, some of the atoms may make it near the surface where we can come and dig them up.

 

So every atom of gold in your wedding ring was forged in a collapsing star, and then traveled across the universe to get to your finger. All the gold we wear and all the gold we give has made this same journey.

 

So how many miles and how many years are represented in a ring?

 

Calculating the path from several supernovae around our galaxy back to our solar system, Tyson concludes, all told, it's a journey of 3 million light years.

Now where did my fiat come from?

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I was listening to the radio yesterday evening. They were talking about Worcester Ceramics and its resurgence due to the impending royal wedding. The most expensive piece was 400£.

 

You got to move atleast 10 tons of earth to mine 9999 fine gold 1 oz. And it costs only 900 £. Its cheap still.

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I was listening to the radio yesterday evening. They were talking about Worcester Ceramics and its resurgence due to the impending royal wedding. The most expensive piece was 400£.

 

You got to move atleast 10 tons of earth to mine 9999 fine gold 1 oz. And it costs only 900 £. Its cheap still.

Its amazing how gold and silver represent hard work. Both these metals have been viewed as valuable for thousands of years, and with all the advances in mining technology, they are still only available in trace amounts.

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Galactic Gold: A Valentine Story

 

link

 

 

 

 

Once inside a planet, some of the atoms may make it near the surface where we can come and dig them up.

 

Fascinating stuff! So there could be a lot more gold in our little earth? How do those clever people estimate how much gold or silver is in our earths crust?

Gold is far older than oil, dinosaurs and all the old people put together in Japan then? I always thought gold somehow simply 'formed' somewhere in our earth. (I'm not a scientist) :lol:

 

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Worth mentioning that bacteria may well play a role in the distribution of gold.

 

Layers of bacteria can actually dissolve gold into nanoparticles, which move through rocks and soils, and then deposit it in other places, sometimes creating purer "secondary" gold deposits in cracks and crevices of rocks. The process overturns the long-held belief by some scientists that gold ore is created only by "primary" physical geological processes.

 

http://news.discovery.com/earth/gold-bacteria-nuggets.html

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Egypt Bans Export Of Gold "In Any Form"

 

The strange thing about this story is that I saw it on Reuters and also Zerohedge but now I can find no trace of it on Reuters and the Reuters link on Zerohedge takes you to a story about UK freezes Gaddafi assets after U.N. resolution

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Egypt Bans Export Of Gold "In Any Form"

 

The strange thing about this story is that I saw it on Reuters and also Zerohedge but now I can find no trace of it on Reuters and the Reuters link on Zerohedge takes you to a story about UK freezes Gaddafi assets after U.N. resolution

Text [+]

CAIRO (Reuters) - Egypt on Sunday banned the export of gold for the next four months, a measure bankers said seemed aimed at preventing businessmen and former government officials who acquired capital illegally from transferring it abroad.

 

An official from a gold mine in Egypt said he was confident it was not aimed at gold production but at individual exports.

 

A decree banning the export of gold in all its forms, including jewelry and ornaments, was issued by newly appointed Trade Minister Samir el-Sayyad. It takes effect immediately and continues until June 30, the official news agency MENA reported.

 

"This decision, which comes in light of the exceptional circumstances the country is passing through ..., is to preserve the country's wealth until the situation stabilises," MENA said.

 

The MENA statement made no mention of whether the ban included exports of gold from mining. But an official from the flagship Sukari gold mine of Centamin Egypt said he was confident the order did not affect the mine's operation.

 

"For Centamin this is not a problem ... I know 100 percent that this is not a problem for us," said Youssef el-Raghy, managing director for the Sukari gold mine, adding that the ruling appeared aimed at individuals taking gold out of Egypt not producers of gold like Centamin.

 

The Egyptian pound has come under pressure after some of the country's main sources of foreign currency, including tourism and foreign investment, collapsed after the protests that ousted President Hosni Mubarak erupted on January 25.

 

But bankers said the decision on gold exports seemed designed more to stop individuals from expatriating funds under the radar than to stem major capital outflows.

 

"It is most likely aimed at the big guys -- the top officials and businessmen who are under suspicion," said John Sfakianakis, a Riyadh-based economist with Bank Saudi Fransi. "They are blocking capital flight in a new asset class."

 

A banker in Cairo also said it seemed aimed at former officials or executives trying to smuggle gold or wealth out of the country.]

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Egypt Bans Export Of Gold "In Any Form"

 

The strange thing about this story is that I saw it on Reuters and also Zerohedge but now I can find no trace of it on Reuters and the Reuters link on Zerohedge takes you to a story about UK freezes Gaddafi assets after U.N. resolution

Text [+]

CAIRO (Reuters) - Egypt on Sunday banned the export of gold for the next four months, a measure bankers said seemed aimed at preventing businessmen and former government officials who acquired capital illegally from transferring it abroad.

 

An official from a gold mine in Egypt said he was confident it was not aimed at gold production but at individual exports.

 

A decree banning the export of gold in all its forms, including jewelry and ornaments, was issued by newly appointed Trade Minister Samir el-Sayyad. It takes effect immediately and continues until June 30, the official news agency MENA reported.

 

"This decision, which comes in light of the exceptional circumstances the country is passing through ..., is to preserve the country's wealth until the situation stabilises," MENA said.

 

The MENA statement made no mention of whether the ban included exports of gold from mining. But an official from the flagship Sukari gold mine of Centamin Egypt said he was confident the order did not affect the mine's operation.

 

"For Centamin this is not a problem ... I know 100 percent that this is not a problem for us," said Youssef el-Raghy, managing director for the Sukari gold mine, adding that the ruling appeared aimed at individuals taking gold out of Egypt not producers of gold like Centamin.

 

The Egyptian pound has come under pressure after some of the country's main sources of foreign currency, including tourism and foreign investment, collapsed after the protests that ousted President Hosni Mubarak erupted on January 25.

 

But bankers said the decision on gold exports seemed designed more to stop individuals from expatriating funds under the radar than to stem major capital outflows.

 

"It is most likely aimed at the big guys -- the top officials and businessmen who are under suspicion," said John Sfakianakis, a Riyadh-based economist with Bank Saudi Fransi. "They are blocking capital flight in a new asset class."

 

A banker in Cairo also said it seemed aimed at former officials or executives trying to smuggle gold or wealth out of the country.]

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Fascinating stuff! So there could be a lot more gold in our little earth? How do those clever people estimate how much gold or silver is in our earths crust?

Gold is far older than oil, dinosaurs and all the old people put together in Japan then? I always thought gold somehow simply 'formed' somewhere in our earth. (I'm not a scientist) :lol:

 

Gold as with many other minerals found on earth are created during the implosion of a sun prior to the Super Nova, it is the incredible pressure and chemical reactions which form it which is why it is difficult to reproduce. The supernova is the rebirth of planets, basically everything including us are all made of stars.

 

The amount of Gold on Earth is finite and does not form on the planet itself.

 

Know what you are buying :-)

 

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Gold as with many other minerals found on earth are created during the implosion of a sun prior to the Super Nova, ... etc

 

 

Be careful with your definitions. Gold IS indeed a mineral, but only by virtue of what chemists call its 'nobility' - it's resistance to oxidation or indeed reaction with other elements. Because of this gold is one of a very small select number of metals, namely rhenium, ruthenium, rhodium, palladium, silver, osmium, iridium, platinum, and gold; i.e., the metals of groups VIIb, VIII, and Ib of the second and third transition series of the periodic table, that can be called 'minerals'.

 

By contrast, iron, aluminium etc would not be considered minerals because they do not occur in isolation in the earts crust, but rather combined with various other elements. So iron, Fe, is not a mineral, but Pyrites (FeS2) and Fe2O3 are.

 

Why make this point?

 

Because the overwhelming majority of minerals found on earth are NOT (as you suggested) created in super nova, but right here, on earth, in volcanoes etc.

Why is that important? Because if it can be made in magma, it can be made by us.

 

So ruby is a mineral (Al2O3:Cr - aluminium oxide with chromium), which is seen as so rare, we not only call it a gemstone but sub-term it a "precious stone", YET, because it is made here on earth it can be synthesized in the lab and has been - since 1837! Indeed they are now routinely synthesised for industrial bearing usage - see here for an example of donught shaped rubies.

 

Indeed we now synthesise all the four "precious stones" (ruby, sapphire, emerald, diamond). If you haven't ever seen the possibilities browse this site for a while - and look at the prices. You can by a sample kit : "For only $40 USD you may have this perfectly cut 27Pieces Synthetic Gems". Or for a real eye-opener, look at the fancy shapes page.

 

These are chemically indistinguishable for the naturally occuring 'minerals'. The main thing that lets them down is their perfection, but it doesn't take a genius to realise how one might even blur that distinction.

 

So what of gold? Could it not be similarly synthesised? The key to answering that is to understand the difference between chemical and nuclear reactions.

 

Gems, like most minerals, are compounds of other elements. Synthesisng them involves chemical reactions amounting to the combination of elements. But while gold is a mineral, it is also an element itself. It cannot be made by combining other elements. It is what it is: chemically indivisible. To make gold, chemical reactions are insufficient. We need NUCLEAR reactions.

 

 

If you remember your elementary chemistry, you'll recall chemical reactions are determined by the outer electrons of atoms. To produce a chemical reaction you need to excite (some way loosen / detach) the outer most (loosely held) electrons. This takes energy. So to burn gas, you need a spark (energy). Th eheat you get out of burning the gas at the alomic level is of the order of that sparks energy. Put energy in, get something similar back.

 

Nuclear reaction, by contrast involve the protons and neutrons of the nucleus. Again, to produce a reactive state, you need to excite these nucleus particles (loosen them). The thing is, as with chemical reactions, the energy needed to loosen the particles that are party to the reaction is of the order of the energy given out during reactions (at the atomic level).

 

One only has to compare the explosive power of a nuclear bomb to conventional chemical explosives to know we are talking about entirely different quantities of enery needed to stimulate such reactions. And even if you have access to this energy, you need to be able to control it and contain it. And given we have yet to produce a decent nuclear fusion reactor, one can see the problems.

 

To summarise, anything is possible. Indeed even aliens could arrive tomorrow with all sorts of new technology. But my guess is, if they do, they'll be wearing synthetic gemstone studded clothes that they pay for with tiny grains of gold.

 

 

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Be careful with your definitions. Gold IS indeed a mineral, but only by virtue of what chemists call its 'nobility' - it's resistance to oxidation or indeed reaction with other elements. Because of this gold is one of a very small select number of metals, namely rhenium, ruthenium, rhodium, palladium, silver, osmium, iridium, platinum, and gold; i.e., the metals of groups VIIb, VIII, and Ib of the second and third transition series of the periodic table, that can be called 'minerals'.

 

By contrast, iron, aluminium etc would not be considered minerals because they do not occur in isolation in the earts crust, but rather combined with various other elements. So iron, Fe, is not a mineral, but Pyrites (FeS2) and Fe2O3 are.

 

Why make this point?

 

Because the overwhelming majority of minerals found on earth are NOT (as you suggested) created in super nova, but right here, on earth, in volcanoes etc.

Why is that important? Because if it can be made in magma, it can be made by us.

 

So ruby is a mineral (Al2O3:Cr - aluminium oxide with chromium), which is seen as so rare, we not only call it a gemstone but sub-term it a "precious stone", YET, because it is made here on earth it can be synthesized in the lab and has been - since 1837! Indeed they are now routinely synthesised for industrial bearing usage - see here for an example of donught shaped rubies.

 

Indeed we now synthesise all the four "precious stones" (ruby, sapphire, emerald, diamond). If you haven't ever seen the possibilities browse this site for a while - and look at the prices. You can by a sample kit : "For only $40 USD you may have this perfectly cut 27Pieces Synthetic Gems". Or for a real eye-opener, look at the fancy shapes page.

 

These are chemically indistinguishable for the naturally occuring 'minerals'. The main thing that lets them down is their perfection, but it doesn't take a genius to realise how one might even blur that distinction.

 

So what of gold? Could it not be similarly synthesised? The key to answering that is to understand the difference between chemical and nuclear reactions.

 

Gems, like most minerals, are compounds of other elements. Synthesisng them involves chemical reactions amounting to the combination of elements. But while gold is a mineral, it is also an element itself. It cannot be made by combining other elements. It is what it is: chemically indivisible. To make gold, chemical reactions are insufficient. We need NUCLEAR reactions.

 

 

If you remember your elementary chemistry, you'll recall chemical reactions are determined by the outer electrons of atoms. To produce a chemical reaction you need to excite (some way loosen / detach) the outer most (loosely held) electrons. This takes energy. So to burn gas, you need a spark (energy). Th eheat you get out of burning the gas at the alomic level is of the order of that sparks energy. Put energy in, get something similar back.

 

Nuclear reaction, by contrast involve the protons and neutrons of the nucleus. Again, to produce a reactive state, you need to excite these nucleus particles (loosen them). The thing is, as with chemical reactions, the energy needed to loosen the particles that are party to the reaction is of the order of the energy given out during reactions (at the atomic level).

 

One only has to compare the explosive power of a nuclear bomb to conventional chemical explosives to know we are talking about entirely different quantities of enery needed to stimulate such reactions. And even if you have access to this energy, you need to be able to control it and contain it. And given we have yet to produce a decent nuclear fusion reactor, one can see the problems.

 

To summarise, anything is possible. Indeed even aliens could arrive tomorrow with all sorts of new technology. But my guess is, if they do, they'll be wearing synthetic gemstone studded clothes that they pay for with tiny grains of gold.

 

Very informative, thanks

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Very informative, thanks

 

Copper can also be found as the metal. The following piece of almost pure copper weighed 17 tons

 

241copperboat.jpg

 

Other metals can also be rarely found

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_metal

 

Interestingly from that link there was an ancient civilisation mining copper around lake superior where that copper in the photo was found.

 

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