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G0ldfinger

Fukushima I: four reactors in trouble.

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Yes and it is a damn sight better than your longwinded diatribes, excuse me. :o

 

Jake, for a similar simulation with more context about what the values mean, and more details, check my previous link there : http://www.greenenergyinvestors.com/index.php?showtopic=14490&view=findpost&p=210188

 

There are links with animations of estimated worst case contaminations and some references.

 

Good luck.

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Jake, for a similar simulation with more context about what the values mean, and more details, check my previous link there : http://www.greenenergyinvestors.com/index.php?showtopic=14490&view=findpost&p=210188

 

There are links with animations of estimated worst case contaminations and some references.

 

Good luck.

 

Thanks for that and apologies to aak for my last outburst. I am trying here to find out as much as possible in quite a stressful situation with lots of conflicting information.

I do know this that Tokyo is emptying of women and children. I saw 5 cars in my town with Yokohama/Tochigi number plates and very dishevelled/worried looking families. Yes, these people are evacuees and not 'on spring vacation'. Some said they were not ever going back. The quake alone was enough for them. So there we are.

I can confirm today that Shinnagawa station was a scrum of women and children as I mentioned day before yesterday, as it is now reported in todays newspaper. Another friend's niece with 2 little kids just told me they got out becuse the stores were OUT of all food, continued power outtages in high rise flats was impossible to live with. The possibility of radiation and obvious lack of trust in the government spokesperson, Edano, meant they just got in their car and drove drove drove. I am 1000 km from Tokyo as the crow flies. No wonder people look dishevelled.

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Class D Metal fire.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_classes

 

 

Of course it can burn. It is not generlly recommended to fight a class D fire with water. However, they need cooling so let's hope the rods dont start to actually burn due to lack of cooling. Melting is far from burning.

It seems the Zirconium casing can burn. That would be a class D metal fire, I think.

That could be a grave situation, because that would disperse the radioactive material, and propel it high into the atmosphere.

 

I Really hope they get the cooling systems working again.

 

EDIT: the cause of the hydrogen buildup and explosions??

http://allthingsnuclear.org/post/3940804083/possible-cause-of-reactor-building-explosions

seems v plausible to me.

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... Some said they were not ever going back (to Tokyo)

Drastic?

A temporary over-reaction?

Or maybe those "empty" country towns will get repopulated again.

But what will people do to make a living?

 

grange3.jpg

 

Is tramatised Japan leading the world into a new, more-agrarian future?

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Drastic?

A temporary over-reaction?

Or maybe those "empty" country towns will get repopulated again.

But what will people do to make a living?

I dont know but Tokyo just had another quake, so I bet they are glad they made the drive.

 

6.1 magnitude north Ibaraki a few miles from Fukushima. Tokyo 4.

 

People will go where they have relatives rather than jobs for the time being. Lack of latter will drive many back IF everything goes ok. Buy hey ho, Sunday wind means Tokyo is going to get lungfuls of bad air. No doubt the gov will just higher the recommended dosage again to suit their whim.

 

''Weather in the crisis region

Currently in a critical region is dominated by a westerly flow. On the ground, wind is relatively weak. There is no precipitation. In the wake of the wind changes to south-east and intensifies. On Sunday reached a front from the southwest to the crisis area and leads to some strong precipitation. Behind the front are then northerly winds forecast, so the situation for the Tokyo area may again be critical.

 

 

BTW Bud Conrad (Casey) interview on C. Martenson says Tokyo is in 'Societal Collapse'.

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@Chris_ct

 

I dont think the zircalloy fuel casing can burn unless there are particular circumstances like high oxygen content and fine distribution of the metal. The metal tends to passify by forming an oxide that is a barrier to combustion.

 

Many years ago i was working in a nuclear testing lab. As i recall the supposedly burnable magnox fuel containers did not burn when i cut them up and put a butane burner on them - i was only 19 so i was a bit dissapointed. :) I was expecting a bright magnesium like flame. These things have to be finely divided for that to happen as I recall. As i recall i could not cut this metal easily with a hacksaw and had to use a file. However this was 35 years ago. I dont remember getting it to burn?? But it seems zircalloy will not easily burn.

 

Edit1: I now realise Magnox means magnesium non oxidising. I am sure I was told this stuff would burn but as i recall it did not burn or was very hard to get it to burn?? Edit2: Possibly because of the high magnesium content i assumed it would burn?

 

At Chernobyl you had the graphite which could smoulder if only red hot and not burning with a flame so just like coal or wood, then in quantity a fire or a very hot fuming mixture was certain where almost certainly material would become airbourne rather than it just gasing

 

Zircalloy also has a fairly high melting point and it is unlikely the metal will melt unless criticality was achieved** - the fuel cans will however burst long before that as the gases expand.

 

Yes many many problems if the fuel is not kept cooled but if there is no water there is no moderator and it appears** it is technically impossible for there to be a critical reaction without water. Ultimately you will get a slag of crap at the bottom of the cooling ponds where there will be almost no oxygen where you have a zircalloy metal that does not burn very easily. Yes this crap will be massively radioactive and it will be fuming but it will not have a fire spreading large dust like particles into the air. There is more or less no way the U02 will get hot enuf to melt with a melting point of around 2900C

 

Fingers crossed and things are manageable bit by bit.

 

@Jake

 

It is better to express yourself than hold it all in so let it rip! No worries.

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Thanks for that and apologies to aak for my last outburst.

 

 

@Jake

 

It is better to express yourself than hold it all in so let it rip! No worries.

good men. i thought ther was going to be a fight and i was scared tto post.

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Today's IRSN report is virtually the same as the previous.

 

Notable differences:

 

 

Reactor 3's pool:

 

A fire engine with a 3.8 ton/min output and a 22m long ladder appears to have been used for 20 to 30mn. A second refill of water occurred on the 19th at 00 30 hours, local time.

 

Reactor 4's pool:

 

A refill is planned on the 19th in the afternoon.

The thermal power being emitted by this pool is quite elevated.

 

 

Noteworthy : http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=fr&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.irsn.fr%2FFR%2FActualites_presse%2FActualites%2FPages%2F20110319_simulation_dispersion_panache_radioactif.aspx&act=url

 

This is today's update for the radioactive plume dispersion simulation.

Note that the scale on the picture at the bottom is marked by three arrows:

 

- France in 2010

- France in the 60's (atmospheric nuclear tests)

- France after the Chernobyl incident.

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Today's IRSN report is virtually the same as the previous.

 

Notable differences:

 

 

 

Noteworthy : http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=fr&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.irsn.fr%2FFR%2FActualites_presse%2FActualites%2FPages%2F20110319_simulation_dispersion_panache_radioactif.aspx&act=url

 

This is today's update for the radioactive plume dispersion simulation.

Note that the scale on the picture at the bottom is marked by three arrows:

 

- France in 2010

- France in the 60's (atmospheric nuclear tests)

- France after the Chernobyl incident.

Thanks for your updates. Please keep them coming.

 

Below is from the Japan Times today. Worst case. I'd beinterested on any thoughts on this/liklihood.

Some well known (in Japan) names on TV warning of total disaster on prime time TV. This is what emptied Tokyo of women and children. However according to these people it will get far worse-much like the scenario below.

Even able to escape the direct effects, the lasting economic effects on, lets face it an already bankrupt country before the crisis, may well be unfathomable. Howls of print print print are being heard...and the pain/damage is and will increase those calls.

Japan Times today...

 

''What is the worst-case scenario?

 

The fuel rods that generate energy in nuclear reactors are long rods in a zirconium alloy cladding. If the attempts to cool the reactors fail and the water that covers the fuel rods recedes, exposing the rods, the temperature begins to rise, as is the case with the Fukushima reactors.

 

If the temperature becomes too great, the fuel rods could melt, releasing highly radioactive fuel, a process more commonly known as a nuclear meltdown.

 

In the worst-case scenario, the radioactive fuel would burn through the reactor's protective containment layers and release large amounts of radiation into the atmosphere.

 

Once outside the reactor, the radioactive fuel could seep through the ground until it hits the water table, which would eventually contaminate crops and other produce.

 

This could prove disastrous as radioactive particles are considered much more dangerous when ingested.''

The Japan Times: Sunday, March 20, 2011

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Thanks for your updates. Please keep them coming.

 

Below is from the Japan Times today. Worst case. I'd beinterested on any thoughts on this/liklihood.

Some well known (in Japan) names on TV warning of total disaster on prime time TV. This is what emptied Tokyo of women and children. However according to these people it will get far worse-much like the scenario below.

Even able to escape the direct effects, the lasting economic effects on, lets face it an already bankrupt country before the crisis, may well be unfathomable. Howls of print print print are being heard...and the pain/damage is and will increase those calls.

Japan Times today...

 

''What is the worst-case scenario?

 

The fuel rods that generate energy in nuclear reactors are long rods in a zirconium alloy cladding. If the attempts to cool the reactors fail and the water that covers the fuel rods recedes, exposing the rods, the temperature begins to rise, as is the case with the Fukushima reactors.

 

If the temperature becomes too great, the fuel rods could melt, releasing highly radioactive fuel, a process more commonly known as a nuclear meltdown.

 

In the worst-case scenario, the radioactive fuel would burn through the reactor's protective containment layers and release large amounts of radiation into the atmosphere.

 

Once outside the reactor, the radioactive fuel could seep through the ground until it hits the water table, which would eventually contaminate crops and other produce.

 

This could prove disastrous as radioactive particles are considered much more dangerous when ingested.''

The Japan Times: Sunday, March 20, 2011

hi jake, the reactors are in a concrete room (called a cell). It is very unlikely this concrete will fail catastrophically. Getting some water sprayed/pumped in to the reactor or cell will further reduced the possibility of the concrete failing. ingested particles don't tend to stay in the body for long as the human body is quite good at passing foreign objects out of the digestive system (if you know what i mean). There is also a degree of protection on the human respiratory system through snot and hairs in nose and throat. There is danger and long term problems but overall this article is bs.

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An expert on TV here was asked to give advice to a New Zealander close to F'plant. One of the things he said was not to eat dairy products as this is one of the easiest ways to absorb some of the radioactive particles or something. The rest of his advice was pretty obvious stuff.

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hi jake, the reactors are in a concrete room (called a cell). It is very unlikely this concrete will fail catastrophically. Getting some water sprayed/pumped in to the reactor or cell will further reduced the possibility of the concrete failing.

It would be reassuring if this was 'for sure'. Why do you think the concrete wont fail? Its not like they can get in there to cool the bugger down is it? I think this fire brigade stuff is an utter nonesense. Ever triedd watering your garden from too far away with the hose? Have you seen the video of water canon? Its a bit of a joke, water blowing everywhere. What can we hope, some of the water dribbles through to the spent rods and the other stuff?

 

I think this 'power' cable lark is simply that too. What is the point if the whole stack of rods lies scattered on the floor like broken eggs? (supposing it is :o )

 

Its remarkable isnt it, we can have tiny cameras performing whilst undergoing open heart surgery-because we plan for it- cameras sitting on warheads for war porn-but for nuclear we have only the crudest of methods of finding out what's going on- a bloody PHOTOGRAPH where we cant see JACK. I can do that on google earth ffs!

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Latest is that rising pressure in number 3 containment vessel means they are urgently looking at venting horribly toxic crap into the atmosphere. According to a professor yesterday number three has a spent fuel rod pond inside the containment vessel. The reactor itself is supposedly being cooled with seawater. I think three has the plutonium MOX fuel.

 

The pressure relief valve is not an automatic device. It is a motorised valve. presumably the valve is outside the containment vessel and destroyed by the explosion so somebody will have to go in and operate it. No doubt elderly mechanics are being sought at the geriatric homes or something for that.

 

Meltdown of the cores is not apparently on the agenda. Meltdown of the fuel in the pools could be - but as an event that keeps going on for days on end that seems unlikely to me.

 

Concrete will be eroded by the melting mixture at the rate of millimetres per minute. Look up 'corium'.

 

Good news is that 5 and 6 are cooling normally and are near normal temperatures - other work continues

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Have you seen the video of water canon? Its a bit of a joke, water blowing everywhere. What can we hope, some of the water dribbles through to the spent rods and the other stuff?

 

Yesterdays video that was interpreted by the professor very clearly showed the water cannon was very effective at getting large quantities of water into the wreckage

 

 

 

I think this 'power' cable lark is simply that too. What is the point if the whole stack of rods lies scattered on the floor like broken eggs? (supposing it is :o )

 

 

Yes if the control rods are lying everywhere they will need individual cleaning up - which is possible to do in a step by step manner. Scattered fuel rods will not be an unsurmountable problem

 

It is quite possible that they can get reactors buildings 1 and 2 back into a much better condition than they have been where lack of pump power has made things impossible to resolve until now.

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Latest is that rising pressure in number 3 containment vessel means they are urgently looking at venting horribly toxic crap into the atmosphere. According to a professor yesterday number three has a spent fuel rod pond inside the containment vessel. The reactor itself is supposedly being cooled with seawater. I think three has the plutonium MOX fuel.

 

 

They're gonna vent that dirty crap today and have it blow on Tokyo from 7:30 am tomorrow morning all day and Tuesday too. :blink:

 

Is this a good idea?

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Yesterdays video that was interpreted by the professor very clearly showed the water cannon was very effective at getting large quantities of water into the wreckage

 

 

 

 

 

It's hard to know if you are being sarcastic or not. The water has to get into the pools, no? And that is presuming they have no leaks. Shooting in the dark springs to mind. Poor sod firemen, is all I can think. It should be Tepco-all of them-and the every politician of every party in their blue overalls.

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It's hard to know if you are being sarcastic or not. The water has to get into the pools, no? And that is presuming they have no leaks. Shooting in the dark springs to mind. Poor sod firemen, is all I can think. It should be Tepco-all of them-and the every politician of every party in their blue overalls.

 

Kyodo: No immediate work to reduce pressure at No. 3 reactor at Fukushima plant (15:38 JST)

Pressure of No. 3 reactor's containment vessel stabilized: Tokyo Electric (15:37 JST

 

They were clearly pumping tons of water into the wreckage yesterday. They know where the ponds are - if the ponds still exist the water seems very likely to go into the ponds. You might have been looking at the video where the wind was taking the water all over the place? In the latest video the hose was only metres from the building against a blue sky.

 

And you have to keep the leaks in the context that radiation is natural and the world if full of natural toxic crap and unnatural toxic crap as for example what comes from most forms of modern gold mining.

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And you have to keep the leaks in the context that radiation is natural and the world if full of natural toxic crap and unnatural toxic crap ...

This is just a very stupid comment. Watch a few videos about the Chernobyl death zone 25(!) years later, and hear them talking about how it is going got be a problem for a few more 100,000 years. The scale of contamination and the time aspect of this man-made disaster is not comparable to anything naturally happening on Earth. Take Mt. St. Helens as an example. The devastation was large, but essentially non-toxic, and in fact it is know how well things grow on volcanic ash, like wine.

 

In terms of other (chemical) man-made contamination, Chernobyl has also not found its match yet.

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This is just a very stupid comment. Watch a few videos about the Chernobyl death zone 25(!) years later, and hear them talking about how it is going got be a problem for a few more 100,000 years. The scale of contamination and the time aspect of this man-made disaster is not comparable to anything naturally happening on Earth. Take Mt. St. Helens as an example. The devastation was large, but essentially non-toxic, and in fact it is know how well things grow on volcanic ash, like wine.

 

In terms of other (chemical) man-made contamination, Chernobyl has also not found its match yet.

 

I am not the one directly investing in the toxicity. You are the one directly investing in the toxicity.

 

The earth if full of man made and natural toxicity. The leak has to be seen in that context.

 

I am for example not particulary worried about the toxicity that is created by gold mining because the world has the ability to dilute this stuff.

 

When you get to grow your vegetables on the waste from the toxic chemical crap that comes from a modern gold mine then you wont be the hypocrit you evidently are.

 

And it is not just hypocracy. You deliberately cut out the context of what i said to accuse me of stupidity.

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And you have to keep the leaks in the context that radiation is natural and the world if full of natural toxic crap and unnatural toxic crap as for example what comes from most forms of modern gold mining.

Is there any topic where you aren't a self proclaimed argumentative expert?

 

Give it a rest for a bit you are crowding out far more inteligent and better informed posters - as usual.

 

I think you seem to like arguing regardless of the subject.

 

No offence though but seriously its just incessant.

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Is there any topic where you aren't a self proclaimed argumentative expert?

 

Give it a rest for a bit you are crowding out far more inteligent and better informed posters - as usual.

 

I think you seem to like arguing regardless of the subject.

 

No offence though but seriously its just incessant.

 

Obviously your purpose here is to be offensive towards me. Or are you another moron who thinks modern gold mining extracting and refining is good for the environment of the planet we live on?

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Obviously your purpose here is to be offensive towards me. Or are you another moron who thinks modern gold mining extracting and refining is good for the environment of the planet we live on?

I assume you spend so much time arguing on this site because in the real world everyone has had enough of you.

 

We joined in the same month and yet you have posted at over four times the rate I have.

 

I have seen a substantial number of posters put you on ignore.

 

I have never put anyone on ignore but you are testing my patience.

 

You seem to litter decent threads with an argumentative rude and agressive posting style.

 

I ask again can you just give it a rest and stop crowding out decent threads and littering them with vitriol.

 

you must have something better to do in the real world.

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We joined in the same month and yet you have posted at over four times the rate I have.

 

And you are posting on other sites. In the last 3 months I made about 1 post a month to all other sites combined.

 

And evidently you are not intererested in discussions with me, in all my dealing with you, all you have done is accuse me of lack of intelligence and worse simply because you either disagree with my point of view or you simply are unable to understand them.

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