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Solar Panels guarantee 5% return


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#1 nicejim

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Posted 01 March 2010 - 09:46 PM

They've got £8bn of taxpayer money to throw at something "environmental" and chose the last effective carbon saving measure possible. They'd do better by cutting VAT on energy saving lightbulbs and loft insulation (assuming they haven't already). Anyway, for those whose jobs allow them to afford solar panels, or whose unemployment allows them to get one for free, there is a tax-free 5-8% index-linked ROI available. And if you know a good sparky, you can apparently join the incoming and outgoing wires, thereby turning 7p into 44p for every KWh you buy.

http://www.guardian....-feed-in-tariff

I wonder what they'll pay me to hook up my exercise bike to the grid...
If you're hanging on to a rising balloon, you're presented with a difficult decision - let go before it's too late or hold on and keep getting higher, posing the question: how long can you keep a grip on the rope?
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#2 riggerbeautz

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Posted 01 March 2010 - 10:31 PM

QUOTE (nicejim @ Mar 1 2010, 09:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
They've got £8bn of taxpayer money to throw at something "environmental" and chose the last effective carbon saving measure possible. They'd do better by cutting VAT on energy saving lightbulbs and loft insulation (assuming they haven't already). Anyway, for those whose jobs allow them to afford solar panels, or whose unemployment allows them to get one for free, there is a tax-free 5-8% index-linked ROI available. And if you know a good sparky, you can apparently join the incoming and outgoing wires, thereby turning 7p into 44p for every KWh you buy.

http://www.guardian....-feed-in-tariff

I wonder what they'll pay me to hook up my exercise bike to the grid...


Did mention it along similar lines.

QUOTE
d) Costs for the programme will be borne by all British ratepayers proportionally: all electricity consumers will bear a slight increase in their annual rate, thus allowing electricity utilities to buy renewable energy generated from green sources at above-market rates set by the government.


http://www.greenener.......st&p=157140
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#3 underling

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Posted 01 March 2010 - 11:14 PM

What should also be noted is the type of property that can accommodate solar panel technology. Firstly most panels are designed to be of maximum benefit and are by and large sited on the South facing roof of a property ....... I emphasise roof. Not much use for anyone living in an apartment block.

How many landlords are likely to make use of this incentive? What benefit to a landlord is this investment? I can tell you not one of the multi-property landlords I deal with would even consider installing solar technology on one of their properties unless the tenant were willing to finance it themselves.

QUOTE
They'd do better by cutting VAT on energy saving lightbulbs and loft insulation


Totally agree, even though I expect to gain by the solar incentive.



Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.

#4 riggerbeautz

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Posted 02 March 2010 - 02:24 PM

QUOTE (underling @ Mar 1 2010, 11:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
What should also be noted is the type of property that can accommodate solar panel technology. Firstly most panels are designed to be of maximum benefit and are by and large sited on the South facing roof of a property ....... I emphasise roof. Not much use for anyone living in an apartment block.

How many landlords are likely to make use of this incentive? What benefit to a landlord is this investment? I can tell you not one of the multi-property landlords I deal with would even consider installing solar technology on one of their properties unless the tenant were willing to finance it themselves.


Absolutely agree. Suspect with regard to those sort of developments it will more likely be social/affordable housing only that will take it up under such as the BREEAM rewards carrots for code 4 sustainable housing. If the U.K ever gets it's act together.

Example of such
http://www.gabreport...an-francis.html
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Beware of MOOD HOOVERS they have a mission.

#5 id5

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Posted 02 March 2010 - 07:09 PM

QUOTE (nicejim @ Mar 1 2010, 09:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
They've got £8bn of taxpayer money to throw at something "environmental" and chose the last effective carbon saving measure possible. They'd do better by cutting VAT on energy saving lightbulbs and loft insulation (assuming they haven't already). Anyway, for those whose jobs allow them to afford solar panels, or whose unemployment allows them to get one for free, there is a tax-free 5-8% index-linked ROI available. And if you know a good sparky, you can apparently join the incoming and outgoing wires, thereby turning 7p into 44p for every KWh you buy.

http://www.guardian....-feed-in-tariff

I wonder what they'll pay me to hook up my exercise bike to the grid...

I keep on doing the financial math on solar photovoltaic and I cannot make it pay over the long term because of the panel degradation and battery maintenance unless I buy at wholesale prices, put it in and maintain it myself. Solar hot water seems to payoff though.

Anyone else done the math?
The market can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent. - John Maynard Keynes

I must remember that investing is a marathon and not a sprint!

#6 nicejim

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Posted 02 March 2010 - 07:33 PM

QUOTE (id5 @ Mar 2 2010, 07:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I keep on doing the financial math on solar photovoltaic and I cannot make it pay over the long term because of the panel degradation and battery maintenance unless I buy at wholesale prices, put it in and maintain it myself. Solar hot water seems to payoff though.

Anyone else done the math?

I've not looked too deeply into it, but back-of-an-envelope calculations show it's a log time until break-even unless energy prices rise significantly. Even if they do, there may be better ways to play it. As the article above states, installing solar panels won't cut greenhouse gases because of the quota system.

Another consideration is the effect on the price of the house if you decide to move before the break-even date.
http://www.guardian....loans-mortgages
Apparently the price will go up, but I'd be more inclined to trust the instincts of Matt Hutchinson as the foot of the article:

"Energy efficiency comes very low down on the tenant's wish list when choosing a rental property"

Not only that, but it's difficult to put a price on an extra inch of insulation or a 10-year-old as opposed to 2-year-old boiler. The energy efficiency reports in HIPS should help, but after the trashing HIPS took when they came out, I doubt many people take much notice.
If you're hanging on to a rising balloon, you're presented with a difficult decision - let go before it's too late or hold on and keep getting higher, posing the question: how long can you keep a grip on the rope?
- Danny, Withnail & I

#7 id5

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Posted 02 March 2010 - 08:30 PM

QUOTE (nicejim @ Mar 2 2010, 07:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I've not looked too deeply into it, but back-of-an-envelope calculations show it's a log time until break-even unless energy prices rise significantly. Even if they do, there may be better ways to play it. As the article above states, installing solar panels won't cut greenhouse gases because of the quota system.

Another consideration is the effect on the price of the house if you decide to move before the break-even date.
http://www.guardian....loans-mortgages
Apparently the price will go up, but I'd be more inclined to trust the instincts of Matt Hutchinson as the foot of the article:

"Energy efficiency comes very low down on the tenant's wish list when choosing a rental property"

Not only that, but it's difficult to put a price on an extra inch of insulation or a 10-year-old as opposed to 2-year-old boiler. The energy efficiency reports in HIPS should help, but after the trashing HIPS took when they came out, I doubt many people take much notice.

Did you factor in the price of replacement batteries for you solar panel array? Give me a 25 year guarantee on batteries and panels and only then would I be interested. Even batteries designed for PV are only expected to last for a maximum of 15 years at best and yet warrantees are only for 12 months normally.

As a tenant I do not think about energy efficiency when renting because even if I was to turn the heating on 24 x 7 it still is far cheaper than buying the same property with a mortgage. If house prices were growing then I might but then I might be looking to buy instead.

As to the new long term loan for energy efficient installations...No for me, nor a house with one on it, where is the proven benefit? Consider two similar houses for sale, one without an extra long term loan for allegedly green energy efficient power that you have to pay off if you buy it and one without, financially what would make sense? Consider in as well the improvement in technology over the life of the loan and interest rates.

The market can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent. - John Maynard Keynes

I must remember that investing is a marathon and not a sprint!

#8 underling

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Posted 02 March 2010 - 10:27 PM

QUOTE (id5 @ Mar 2 2010, 07:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I keep on doing the financial math on solar photovoltaic and I cannot make it pay over the long term because of the panel degradation and battery maintenance unless I buy at wholesale prices, put it in and maintain it myself. Solar hot water seems to payoff though.

Anyone else done the math?


Can help you with some guide prices on solar hot water.

Assuming you're sole requirement is a retro-fit addition to your existing system the pack with two collectors (supplied with all flashings and controls) and an unvented twin coil cylinder of around 250 L capacity can be picked up with a 25yr guarantee for around £2.5k whilst fitting charges can vary wildly. Though the installation of the panels can be done yourself (if you're fairly happy with roofing) the unvented cylinder will require you to hire a suitably qualified heating engineer but the job as a whole can be done in one day by an experienced crew of two.

It has been claimed that they will effectively provide free hot water (not heating) but it should be noted that if you're running heating at the same time you may also be using the boiler to heat the hot water side in the cylinder at the same time so I personally believe the whole area of calculation to be somewhat fuzzy. Some of the older boilers with cast iron heat exchangers if properly maintained have proved to last for a good 20 to 30 years whilst a large proportion of the early condensing boilers (3 - 5 or so years old) are already breaking down. (planned obsolescence?)




Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.

#9 id5

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Posted 03 March 2010 - 08:45 AM

QUOTE (underling @ Mar 2 2010, 10:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Can help you with some guide prices on solar hot water.

Assuming you're sole requirement is a retro-fit addition to your existing system the pack with two collectors (supplied with all flashings and controls) and an unvented twin coil cylinder of around 250 L capacity can be picked up with a 25yr guarantee for around £2.5k whilst fitting charges can vary wildly. Though the installation of the panels can be done yourself (if you're fairly happy with roofing) the unvented cylinder will require you to hire a suitably qualified heating engineer but the job as a whole can be done in one day by an experienced crew of two.

It has been claimed that they will effectively provide free hot water (not heating) but it should be noted that if you're running heating at the same time you may also be using the boiler to heat the hot water side in the cylinder at the same time so I personally believe the whole area of calculation to be somewhat fuzzy. Some of the older boilers with cast iron heat exchangers if properly maintained have proved to last for a good 20 to 30 years whilst a large proportion of the early condensing boilers (3 - 5 or so years old) are already breaking down. (planned obsolescence?)

If you are in the UK then I am not sure that you are looking at the correct solar hot water equipment as it sounds like you are describing an active open system and they do not work very well in the UK because of the cold. You need a drainback or anti-freezing system and these are a lot more difficult to install. It could be done in a day but only under optimum conditions and a lot of that would depend on the house design, heating system, hot water system, etc. Cost of an anti-freeze kit without any other bits that you need is around £2,500, you would also need to add roof fitting, flashing, etc, and a most likely a new immersion tank, about £350. If you can find local plumbers, electrician and roofers installation could be as low as £500 but more likely more than £750. Total would be just over £4K and in theory for maintenance just requires a quick check of the fluid levels and operation every year or so.

The market can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent. - John Maynard Keynes

I must remember that investing is a marathon and not a sprint!

#10 underling

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Posted 03 March 2010 - 12:10 PM


You may be correct .............. my figures are based generally on cost +5% margin. wink.gif
Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.

#11 riggerbeautz

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Posted 03 March 2010 - 07:29 PM

QUOTE (id5 @ Mar 2 2010, 07:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I keep on doing the financial math on solar photovoltaic and I cannot make it pay over the long term because of the panel degradation and battery maintenance unless I buy at wholesale prices, put it in and maintain it myself. Solar hot water seems to payoff though.

Anyone else done the math?


Just about to get fresh quotes so will post up any findings as and when.

Incidentally, Sharp's promote 25 year performance guarantees.


Never stop questioning - Einstein

When you blame others you give up your power to change - Douglas Noel Adams

Beware of MOOD HOOVERS they have a mission.

#12 riggerbeautz

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Posted 03 March 2010 - 07:31 PM

QUOTE (underling @ Mar 3 2010, 12:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You may be correct .............. my figures are based generally on cost +5% margin. wink.gif


Hope you don't mind me asking but would the wink.gif happen to indicate you know "someone" who could provide supply and fix prices or just retail?
Never stop questioning - Einstein

When you blame others you give up your power to change - Douglas Noel Adams

Beware of MOOD HOOVERS they have a mission.

#13 Silent reader

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Posted 03 March 2010 - 07:43 PM

I was recently at a local event where I asked the MD of one of the manufacturers of a Solar panel (PV) about the payback for customers had been decided, and he said that that there is a clause in the rebate tariff where a payment will decline by 7% on a year-by-year basis (this was said to me after his presentation with not to many people around, and where feeding his face at the buffet)

I have no actual evidence of this, it is just hear say - he may well be talking out of his backside - I've not done to much research on this as I’m not in a position to purchase this technology just yet.




The following links was passed on to me from a friend, you may also find this useful. I've still not gone through these............ I've just not got around to doing it yet.

(hmmm note to self.... remove finger from you know where)



-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Feed in Tariffs Conference, Sept 2009


Useful Links

The presentations from the speakers in the morning session can be watched here:

http://www.regensw.c...d-in-tariff.php

DECC’s consultation page on Renewable Electricity Financial Incentives is here:

http://www.decc.gov...._financial.aspx

New Energy Focus’s take on things can be found here:

http://www.newenergy...y/v...e & Micro

Comments on the consultation document should be sent here before 15th October 2009:

rfi@decc.gsi.gov.uk


15 Oct 2009 = End of consultation
October 2009 – Feb 2010 = draft license modification (including 1 month of further Governmental consultation)
Feb 2010 = Parliamentary approval for license modification
April 2010 = FITs launch
2012 = 1st Review likely
2013 = Any changes implemented (coincides with RO banding review)

Quite an experience to live in fear, isn't it? ..................... That's what it is to be a slave.

We all have one thing in common… everyone dies, but not everyone gets to live. REVEL in your time !

#14 underling

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Posted 03 March 2010 - 10:10 PM

QUOTE (riggerbeautz @ Mar 3 2010, 07:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Hope you don't mind me asking but would the wink.gif happen to indicate you know "someone" who could provide supply and fix prices or just retail?



I have contacts in plumbing and heating manufacturers, distributors and merchants and my suggested guide price was based on a cost of buying from either a manufacturer or distributer and assuming you should be able to then buy from a merchant with them working on a margin of 5% which I gather is what is to be expected. Rather embarressingly riggerbeautz, I suspect I may have neglected to include VAT.

One suggestion if you're looking to price up an installation is to find a local heating engineer (most will know assosciated tradesmen they can trust) and offer to pay for materials direct to their merchant on a cash sale basis. The engineer should appreciate this as it limits his exposure to risk (i.e you not paying him at all) and in some cases will keep him below the VAT threshold and he may also be happy to do the whole job cheaper for 'cash' and keep it off his books. Most of the PH engineers I have had dealings with only put about 70% through their books.

QUOTE
I was recently at a local event where I asked the MD of one of the manufacturers of a Solar panel (PV) about the payback for customers had been decided, and he said that that there is a clause in the rebate tariff where a payment will decline by 7% on a year-by-year basis (this was said to me after his presentation with not to many people around, and where feeding his face at the buffet)

I have no actual evidence of this, it is just hear say - he may well be talking out of his backside - I've not done to much research on this as I’m not in a position to purchase this technology just yet.


I suspect I may know who you may have been talking to. If the same man, in my conversations with him he showed some reluctance to promote PV. He was far more keen to discuss Solar Thermal though that may have been because that was where my interest lay.


Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.

#15 riggerbeautz

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Posted 03 March 2010 - 10:45 PM

QUOTE (underling @ Mar 3 2010, 10:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I have contacts in plumbing and heating manufacturers, distributors and merchants and my suggested guide price was based on a cost of buying from either a manufacturer or distributer and assuming you should be able to then buy from a merchant with them working on a margin of 5% which I gather is what is to be expected. Rather embarressingly riggerbeautz, I suspect I may have neglected to include VAT.

One suggestion if you're looking to price up an installation is to find a local heating engineer (most will know assosciated tradesmen they can trust) and offer to pay for materials direct to their merchant on a cash sale basis. The engineer should appreciate this as it limits his exposure to risk (i.e you not paying him at all) and in some cases will keep him below the VAT threshold and he may also be happy to do the whole job cheaper for 'cash' and keep it off his books. Most of the PH engineers I have had dealings with only put about 70% through their books.


No problem, just wondered if you were in a position to quote laid costs or provide a service. I'm fairly well positioned to get quotes, just not signed up yet as some years back, I was told it would get cheaper if patient.
Never stop questioning - Einstein

When you blame others you give up your power to change - Douglas Noel Adams

Beware of MOOD HOOVERS they have a mission.

#16 riggerbeautz

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Posted 03 March 2010 - 10:53 PM

QUOTE (Silent reader @ Mar 3 2010, 07:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I was recently at a local event where I asked the MD of one of the manufacturers of a Solar panel (PV) about the payback for customers had been decided, and he said that that there is a clause in the rebate tariff where a payment will decline by 7% on a year-by-year basis (this was said to me after his presentation with not to many people around, and where feeding his face at the buffet)


Not heard that one was speaking to the M.D of small European P.V manufacturer last week. I'll ask his opinion tomorrow if I get chance.
Never stop questioning - Einstein

When you blame others you give up your power to change - Douglas Noel Adams

Beware of MOOD HOOVERS they have a mission.

#17 Silent reader

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Posted 04 March 2010 - 07:59 AM

QUOTE (riggerbeautz @ Mar 3 2010, 10:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Not heard that one was speaking to the M.D of small European P.V manufacturer last week. I'll ask his opinion tomorrow if I get chance.


Please do, I would very much like to know if it's true.

Quite an experience to live in fear, isn't it? ..................... That's what it is to be a slave.

We all have one thing in common… everyone dies, but not everyone gets to live. REVEL in your time !

#18 underling

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Posted 04 March 2010 - 02:13 PM

Have researched the grant scheme on renewables a little today and have found a rather interesting clause on eligibilty.

QUOTE
In small and medium-sized installations, both installers and equipment to be
certified under the Microgeneration Certification Scheme (MCS) or equivalent
standard, helping to ensure quality assurance and consumer protection.


There are some comments on this particular clause here.

So it seems (at my first glance) this scheme is designed to assist just homeowners mainly and support through financial assistance companies which have for a long period of time monopolised the industry whilst keeping out the small individual who wishes to gain some experience within the industry and who are regularly far cheaper to employ to undertake the installment.


Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.

#19 id5

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Posted 04 March 2010 - 06:31 PM

QUOTE (riggerbeautz @ Mar 3 2010, 07:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Just about to get fresh quotes so will post up any findings as and when.

Incidentally, Sharp's promote 25 year performance guarantees.

For performance yes but subject to a 5 year materials or workmanship warranty. I can imagine the conversation "Yes Sir, I agree down on power but due to cells not working, that will be out of warranty then".

I also see that it is only expected to give 80% of its rated power as well after the first 10 years. I suspect that to get the full warranty it will also have to be installed by a Sharp Accredited Installer and serviced by one as well.

The market can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent. - John Maynard Keynes

I must remember that investing is a marathon and not a sprint!

#20 underling

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Posted 06 March 2010 - 12:50 AM

QUOTE (riggerbeautz @ Mar 3 2010, 10:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
No problem, just wondered if you were in a position to quote laid costs or provide a service. I'm fairly well positioned to get quotes, just not signed up yet as some years back, I was told it would get cheaper if patient.



I can if you wish try and get a current comparative estimate on hot water solar installed by a non MCS accredited crew (though their professional qualifiations still give them the right to take on the job) and possibly non-mcs hardware if you can furnish me with your requirement. It'll take me a little bit of work (which I by no means mind putting the work in to do, though I'll have to fit it around my work schedule which currently seems to be getting fuller by the day) if it'll help you ascertain whether or not you are being quoted a fair rate and to ensure you're not being ragged.

Though I may be passing on some industry secrets to a small degree whilst hiding behind my anonimnity I try and view forums such as this a community and to a degree a 'fellowship', and any help I can give I am more than willing to give. It is no more than I would give to a friend or neighbour.

If there's any way I can help my spare time is free to you.



Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.




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