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PIIGS / Europe's Debt Troubles


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#1001 G0ldfinger

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Posted 08 February 2012 - 06:43 PM

I suppose age is a factor, under 30 then yes you can pick and choose. If not it's more difficult.

Yes, true. I was referring to the kids in the article.
You can't tax deflation.
“Currency Induced Cost-Push Hyperinflation” vs “Demand-Pull (non-hyper) Inflation.”
The "no income --> no inflation"-thesis is as wrong as the "price control --> inflation control"-thesis.
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#1002 halight

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Posted 08 February 2012 - 06:45 PM

China May Invest Tens of Billions of Euros to Assist Europe, Academic Says

Link... http://www.bloomberg...demic-says.html


China may “move shortly” to help Europe resolve its debt crisis by providing an investment of as much as 100 billion euros ($132 billion), said Yuan Gangming, an economist at the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences.

The money would probably go to the European Financial Stability Facility, the euro bailout fund, said Yuan, adding that the forecasts are his own and don’t necessarily represent government plans. Economists from the academy provide policy advice without direct involvement in decisions.

Helping Europe is like “hitting two birds with one stone,” Yuan said in an interview in Beijing Feb. 6. The action would have many benefits and few drawbacks, Yuan said.

China, sitting on the world’s largest foreign-exchange reserves at more than $3 trillion, has signaled a stronger willingness to aid Europe, which is the largest market for its exports. Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao traveled with German Chancellor Angela Merkel last week to Guangdong province, a hub for factories making electronics, shoes and toys for export, and said there that helping Europe would be helping China itself.

The euro traded near an eight-week high on speculation Greece is making progress on measures to secure international aid. The currency rose less than 0.1 percent to $1.3269 against the dollar as of 4:08 p.m. in Tokyo.

China may initially invest tens of billions of euros and later increase the amount to 100 billion euros or even more, said Yuan, who is also a researcher at Tsinghua University’s Center for China in the World Economy. Another option is for funds to go toward the International Monetary Fund’s bailout program, he said.
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#1003 halight

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Posted 08 February 2012 - 06:46 PM

More on above story,


Providing funds will help stabilize the crisis while allowing China to reap investment returns, improve its image and give it greater say in European and global financial talks, he said. Greek Prime Minister Lucas Papademos is currently negotiating terms for a rescue package for his nation as European leaders seek to limit contagion.

China’s investment will be “meaningful” to the market as it will ease concerns about debt default and shore up confidence, Yuan said. “It will also be a safe investment because European nations remain rich. They’ve just borrowed too much and run into temporary funding difficulties.”

Yuan said he read Wen’s comments from Merkel’s visit as showing a Chinese government that was more willing to participate in aiding Europe. Wen didn’t, as he had in the past, link the desire for Europe to recognize China as a full market economy with the nation’s willingness to help, Yuan said.

Merkel’s visit “broke a deadlock,” he said.



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#1004 halight

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Posted 08 February 2012 - 06:52 PM

Im thinking on the lines of we will loan you a shed load of money on the cheep. In return you let us buy up a load of your assets,





This dose work for china in may ways. One of which is that if Europe blows up. China will have to start looking for some one else to buy the its stuff.
China needs the west to buy from her. In order to keep the plates spinning at home.


Oh and dont forget. The borrower become slave to the leander! That will work out for them also.
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#1005 halight

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Posted 09 February 2012 - 06:08 AM

Greece Talks Stall as Venizelos Heads to Brussels


http://www.bloomberg...imminently.html

Greek Finance Minister Evangelos Venizelos said there is still uncertainty on the terms of a 130 billion-euro ($172 billion) rescue package for his country ahead of a meeting of euro area finance ministers today.

“There are issues outstanding that must be resolved by the time the eurogroup meets,” Venizelos told reporters in Athens today after a meeting with Prime Minister Lucas Papademos and European Union and International Monetary Fund officials that ended just before 6 a.m. “As the prime minister said, there is agreement on all the issues bar one.”

The meeting with the so-called troika of lenders, representing the European Commission, the European Central Bank and the IMF, took place after leaders of the three parties supporting the government met Papademos and failed to resolve a dispute over pension cuts.


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#1006 DrBubb

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Posted 09 February 2012 - 06:47 AM

Greece Talks Stall as Venizelos Heads to Brussels
...there is still uncertainty on the terms ...

What's the issue? PENSIONS

"The leaders have effectively agreed on all the issues except for that of cuts to pensions"
Panos Beglitis, a spokesman for the Pasok socialist party, told reporters after the meeting. He said his party was opposed to cuts in main pensions and that talks revolved around finding alternatives to make up for a 300- million euro shortfall.

They need an agreement by 12 Feb... or there may be a default
The market is "bipolar", swinging back and forth from a focus on Inflation to Deflation. Bet on swings; and stay flexible. What are bipolar markets? See: http://tinyurl.com/GEI-Manix

#1007 G0ldfinger

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Posted 09 February 2012 - 09:45 AM

Apparently, the Papas have now almost agreed on everything the Troika wants, except for something with pensions.

Eventually, they will agree, and the German Gazillions will roll.

Then they will be very upset about the bad Germans because the economy will still be in the dump.

Then there will be an election.

Then there will be a 100% default and exit from the Euro.

One year.
You can't tax deflation.
“Currency Induced Cost-Push Hyperinflation” vs “Demand-Pull (non-hyper) Inflation.”
The "no income --> no inflation"-thesis is as wrong as the "price control --> inflation control"-thesis.
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#1008 DrBubb

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Posted 09 February 2012 - 09:48 AM

...
Then there will be an election.
Then there will be a 100% default and exit from the Euro.
One year.

Who knows what other mischief will happen (in Greece and elsewhere) in the meantime.

Why should anyone fall for this money-wasting delay?
The market is "bipolar", swinging back and forth from a focus on Inflation to Deflation. Bet on swings; and stay flexible. What are bipolar markets? See: http://tinyurl.com/GEI-Manix

#1009 G0ldfinger

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Posted 09 February 2012 - 10:43 AM

It is really fascinating to see how now the balance between the Greek economy (sort of non-existent) and the German one (booming and pretty large) is re-established. The average wealth of the people going forward will better reflect these economic realities, while until recently the picture was distorted by a debt bubble economy. Now, the picture still IS distorted in places like Spain and Italy, and balance must be brought to these places too. Funny thing is, while in Greece they can impose deflation, it won't work in the other places. So Germany must hyper-inflate to create this balance, is what I often think. That's why house prices in Germany could stay stable, or in fact, go up a lot if those in Italy stay level or don't fall a lot. It has always struck me as funny that I could go to places in Italy and Spain and things were more expensive than in Germany. It simply makes no sense, and that's what's changing now. Greece and Ireland were first, the rest of the UK-PIIGSF is now following. But I still think we'll fall onto the inflation side with all this.
You can't tax deflation.
“Currency Induced Cost-Push Hyperinflation” vs “Demand-Pull (non-hyper) Inflation.”
The "no income --> no inflation"-thesis is as wrong as the "price control --> inflation control"-thesis.
Don't TRADE gold! You might lose your shirt in the biggest bull run ever. That would be embarassing. © possibly by Swampy
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Gold, silver, property, currencies, commodities charts.

#1010 G0ldfinger

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Posted 09 February 2012 - 10:58 AM

http://www.bloomberg...imminently.html

“Some key pieces are falling into place,” Holger Schmieding, chief economist at Berenberg Bank in London, said in an e-mailed note today. “Barring any last minute hitch, Europe may soon have defused the Greek issue for a while.”

:lol:
You can't tax deflation.
“Currency Induced Cost-Push Hyperinflation” vs “Demand-Pull (non-hyper) Inflation.”
The "no income --> no inflation"-thesis is as wrong as the "price control --> inflation control"-thesis.
Don't TRADE gold! You might lose your shirt in the biggest bull run ever. That would be embarassing. © possibly by Swampy
Posted Image
Gold, silver, property, currencies, commodities charts.

#1011 chris ct

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Posted 10 February 2012 - 03:02 AM

Greek Police Union (POASY)??? threatening to arrest IMF, ECB and EC representatives?
original:
http://www.poasy.gr/...roikas&catid=26

translation:
http://translate.goo...atid=26&act=url

quote from google translate:

For representatives: European Commission President Servaz Nteroouz
International Monetary Fund, Mr. Thomsen Pooul
European Central Bank, Mr. Klaouz Mazouch

Gentlemen,
...
The interests of creditors of usurious loans and capitalists who covet our national wealth, can not in any rule of law be put in override the basic needs of everyday people. Moreover, the priority of survival of a nation's citizens, has nomologithei internationally that is a priority not only in domestic policy and the international community. Moreover, we are neither we nor the majority of the people in the same squadron, who caused the crisis.

Because, however, we find once again that you continue the same destructive policies for all of us, we would like to state categorically that under no circumstances will accept being put to be killed with our brothers.

Be warned as legitimate representatives of the Greek police that we will require to be issued directly to statutory orders to arrest you for a host of violations of the legislation, the act of committing a hearing in accordance with specific provisions of the Greek penal law, such as extortion, the covert promoting elimination or reduction of our democratic polity and national sovereignty, the interference of other essential legal goods of the Greek people, etc.



oh, and there's this:
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http://tinyurl.com/yjnqo5p
All I wanna hear is that JPM is soon going to explode in a gigantic supernova that will take the Fed, Goldman, AIG, UBS, HSBC, Citi, and BofA with it, leaving behind a white dwarf that we will name "God's work".
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#1012 G0ldfinger

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Posted 10 February 2012 - 08:07 AM

The Papas need a Dolchstosslegende. But it will backfire at them. The Dolchstosslegende will eat their Papas. They'll be gone by next winter.
You can't tax deflation.
“Currency Induced Cost-Push Hyperinflation” vs “Demand-Pull (non-hyper) Inflation.”
The "no income --> no inflation"-thesis is as wrong as the "price control --> inflation control"-thesis.
Don't TRADE gold! You might lose your shirt in the biggest bull run ever. That would be embarassing. © possibly by Swampy
Posted Image
Gold, silver, property, currencies, commodities charts.

#1013 DrBubb

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Posted 10 February 2012 - 09:01 AM

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-02-08/greek-bailout-talks-stall-on-pension-dispute-talks-to-resume-imminently.html
“Some key pieces are falling into place,” Holger Schmieding, chief economist at Berenberg Bank in London, said in an e-mailed note today. “Barring any last minute hitch, Europe may soon have defused the Greek issue for a while.”
:lol:

"... for a while."

Can this kicking-the-can delaying tactic be any more transparent than this is now?
The market is "bipolar", swinging back and forth from a focus on Inflation to Deflation. Bet on swings; and stay flexible. What are bipolar markets? See: http://tinyurl.com/GEI-Manix

#1014 warpig

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Posted 10 February 2012 - 12:58 PM

Cross post from the gold thread.

Posted Image


"There can be no other criterion, no other standard than gold. Yes, gold which never changes, which can be turned into ingots bars, coins, which has no nationality and which is eternally and universally accepted as the unalterable fiduciary value par excellence"

"Betting against gold is the same as betting on governments. He who bets on governments and government money, bets against 6,000 years of recorded human history."

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#1015 halight

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Posted 11 February 2012 - 10:28 AM

S&P Downgrades 34 Italian Banks on Risks

http://www.bloomberg...s-grade-1-.html


UniCredit SpA (UCG), Intesa Sanpaolo SpA and Banca Monte dei Paschi di Siena SpA (BMPS) were among 34 Italian financial firms downgraded by Standard & Poor’s, after the credit-ratings company reduced the nation’s grade last month.

UniCredit, Italy’s biggest bank, and No. 2 Intesa had their long-term ratings lowered to BBB+ from A, S&P said yesterday in a statement. Monte dei Paschi, the No. 3 bank, was reduced to BBB from BBB+. All three have a negative outlook, S&P said.

Italy’s credit rating was cut two levels to BBB+ from A on Jan. 13 as S&P said European leaders’ struggle to contain the region’s debt crisis would complicate the country’s efforts to finance borrowings. S&P yesterday revised its banking industry country risk assessment, known as Bicra, for Italy to group 4 from group 3, citing mounting risks.

“Italy’s vulnerability to external financing risks has increased, given its high external public debt, resulting in Italian banks’ significantly diminished ability to roll over their wholesale debt,” S&P said in a separate statement on the country’s financial industry. “We anticipate persistently weak profitability for Italian banks in the next few years.”

European nations are grappling with a debt crisis now in its third year as they seek to restore budget order and shore up the region’s financial industry. Spreads on some Italian banks are trading as if they were rated at the cusp of investment grade.

‘Less Hit’

“Banks in highly indebted countries have a greater potential vulnerability than in others,” Italian Prime Minister Mario Monti said yesterday in a CNBC interview. “By and large, Italian banks have been less hit by the financial crisis than the banks in many other European countries.”

The extra yield investors demand to hold bonds of UniCredit and for Intesa rather than government debt was 508 basis points on Feb. 9, or 5.08 percentage points, compared with an average 306 basis points in the Bank of America Merrill Lynch Euro Corporates, Banking Index. European BBB ranked bonds are at 381 basis points and BB debt at 664, Bank of America Merrill Lynch index data show.

Fitch Ratings downgraded Intesa to A- from A, and Monte dei Paschi to BBB from BBB+ in a statement on Feb. 6. The credit- ratings company affirmed its A- rating on UniCredit.

S&P downgrades linked to Europe’s debt crisis haven’t necessarily led to shifts in bond prices, as investors anticipated declines in creditworthiness. The French 10-year bond was little changed in the five days after S&P lowered the nation to AA+ from AAA. The response was the same last August, when financial markets dismissed the U.S.’s loss of AAA status by pushing the yield on the 10-year Treasury note to a record low of 1.6714 percent just seven weeks later.




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#1016 halight

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Posted 11 February 2012 - 10:30 AM

Is Italy next in line foe abailout ? The country thats been said to be too big to save ?
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#1017 DrBubb

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Posted 11 February 2012 - 11:12 AM

S&P Downgrades 34 Italian Banks on Risks

Italian 10 year Bond yields:
http://www.bloomberg...R10:IND&img=png

Posted Image
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#1018 halight

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Posted 12 February 2012 - 09:09 AM

Soros: Greek Bailout Won’t Rid Europe of ‘Danger’

Billionaire investor George Soros predicted weak growth and lingering political tension that could shatter Europe’s economic union even if Greece agrees to austerity measures.

“Right now the European Union and particularly the heavily indebted countries face a lost decade,” Soros said. “It might actually be longer than a decade because Japan that had a similar situation with the real estate boom and the banking crisis has had now 25 years of no growth,” Soros said.

“That will create tensions within the European Union, which could destroy the European Union,” he said. “And that’s a real danger.”

Soros spoke in an interview taped on Feb. 9 for CNN’s “Fareed Zakaria GPS,” scheduled to air today.

A package of budget, wage and pension cuts that Greece’s parliment could adopt as soon as tomorrow is “not necessarily going to work in the long run,” Soros said. “But it will certainly buy you another six months of quiet on the Greek front.”

“Greece is a sick situation” that has been “mishandled” by European authorities and “will continue to be an irritant and a problem for Europe,” Soros said. The European Union, once a desirable objective, has become “more of an imposition,” he said.

The interim government of Greek Prime Minister Lucas Papademos Feb.10 approved budget cuts needed to secure a second package of aid from euro-zone finance ministers, preparing the way for a ratification vote in parliament today.


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#1019 halight

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 05:46 PM

Spanish village goes back to peseta as euro crisis takes hold: Residents turn to old money kept in case single currency folded


A desperate Spanish village has turned back time and re-introduced the peseta in a bid to kick-start its ailing local economy.
Residents in Villamayor de Santiago, 80 miles southeast of Madrid, initially held onto the old money for fear the euro would fold.
In recent months their prediction, made when their national currency was phased out ten years ago, has inched closer to coming true.

They have been hit with spiralling unemployment - one third of


The price of basic foodstuffs has also risen by a staggering 43 per cent since 2002 and there are fears Spain may have to be bailed out by the eurozone.
Shopkeepers in the village took the drastic step of going back to the peseta in the hope that some residents would still have old coins and notes left lying around their homes.
And their gamble seems to have worked - with 6,000 euros worth of pesetas being spent since


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#1020 halight

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Posted 13 February 2012 - 05:52 PM

Greeks left counting cost of riots they can't afford: Cash-strapped country starts clean up of rubble-strewn streets93 buildings set on fire, 120 people hurt and 130 arrested
Athens hit by rioters angry with approval of new austerity measures
European Commission welcomes decision to approve austerity measures
Economics commissioner Olli Rehn urges Greece to 'take ownership' and fully implement reforms



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