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Ground heat home warming systems


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#1 aliveandkicking

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Posted 23 December 2009 - 03:27 PM

I am currently on a very old oil based system maybe using about 4000 liters a year.

Apparently it is easily possible to drill in a variety of directions thru the granite here to get a loop of circulating fluid a few hundred feet beneath the ground just by the drilling. Dont know anything about it so far.

Anybody done this?

#2 underling

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Posted 24 December 2009 - 02:37 PM

QUOTE (aliveandkicking @ Dec 23 2009, 03:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I am currently on a very old oil based system maybe using about 4000 liters a year.

Apparently it is easily possible to drill in a variety of directions thru the granite here to get a loop of circulating fluid a few hundred feet beneath the ground just by the drilling. Dont know anything about it so far.

Anybody done this?



Have not got the facilities myself but have fair knowledge on the systems.

It goes without saying of course but if you're considering having this installed be aware that most of the figures quoted for efficiency are based mainly on idealic circumstances and thus calculations of savings may prove a little inaccurate. Always check the warranty conditions fully on the equipment (heat pump especially) as it often takes a longer period of time to pay for the installation than the warranty offers cover. The last calculation I made as a comparison to natural gas heating had a repayment period of 27 years based on UK prices and this was on a new-build as opposed to a retrospective installation. (The warrantee on the heat pump valued at 2k+ was just 10 years parts and labour). Also be aware that heat pumps will be most effective using underfloor heating and if you have wall hung radiators you'll need to have them replaced with radiators giving roughly an extra 20% btu output as heat pumps give a lower temperature output. Retrospective installations thus tend to be more expensive and somewhat of a messy affair.

One of the UK's more successful and experienced companies who deal with the installation of this technology here and it may be worth looking through their spiel to gauge for yourself.

There's a good exhibition/conference here where you could ask a few questions and possibly get realistic appraisals.

All the best of the season.


Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.

#3 aliveandkicking

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Posted 28 December 2009 - 12:23 PM

QUOTE (underling @ Dec 25 2009, 02:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Have not got the facilities myself but have fair knowledge on the systems.

It goes without saying of course but if you're considering having this installed be aware that most of the figures quoted for efficiency are based mainly on idealic circumstances and thus calculations of savings may prove a little inaccurate. Always check the warranty conditions fully on the equipment (heat pump especially) as it often takes a longer period of time to pay for the installation than the warranty offers cover. The last calculation I made as a comparison to natural gas heating had a repayment period of 27 years based on UK prices and this was on a new-build as opposed to a retrospective installation. (The warrantee on the heat pump valued at 2k+ was just 10 years parts and labour). Also be aware that heat pumps will be most effective using underfloor heating and if you have wall hung radiators you'll need to have them replaced with radiators giving roughly an extra 20% btu output as heat pumps give a lower temperature output. Retrospective installations thus tend to be more expensive and somewhat of a messy affair.

One of the UK's more successful and experienced companies who deal with the installation of this technology here and it may be worth looking through their spiel to gauge for yourself.

There's a good exhibition/conference here where you could ask a few questions and possibly get realistic appraisals.

All the best of the season.


Thanks for the detailed reply. Unfortunately it does all come down to difficult to decide upon economics. If the heat pump was only 2000 pounds i would definately give it a go though even if only to heat the easiest to remodel parts of the house. At a guess 2000 buys a very small heat pump.

A beginning part of the equation is likely to be an energy efficient house - something that again does not pay for itself until way into the future just at a time all of the features present begin to decay and wear out. I have cavity walls for example. A technology that is limited by the life of the metal ties between the walls at some considerable cost and difficulty to renew. People who installed cheap ties are in a better position than expensive heavy ties that can corrode and expand to break the cement and bend the walls whereas the cheap ones are not strong enuf to create that failure when they fail and just need some kind of replacement method rather than individual isolation by coring around them after location by metal detectors.

Reasons for renting 1 2 3 etc

#4 aliveandkicking

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Posted 18 January 2010 - 11:04 AM

Ground heat is beginning to sound fairly attractive to us if the claimed efficiencies are true because of the high costs and hassels of the other systems.

Ground heat system for us here, will involve drilling a 200!! meter deep well into which a copper u tube is installed lasting many decades. This can be done in a day they say. And since we are on solid granite they dont have to locate the rock first so it could be cheaper. Removal of old boiler and complete installation is said to be about 20,000 Euro but in Finland there is a massive tax deduction on labour used by contractors so cost is reckoned to be about 14,500 and 770 per year to run. Currently the oil bill is 680 per month! The heat pump installers are claiming they can economicly provide a water temperature of 65 degrees at the rated number of kilowatts to drive the old central heating radiaors - this is the part that needs more investigation to prove that for us and our rock and so forth- other people are claiming low temperature radiators or warm air or underfloor heating is required due to the low temperature output of the heat pump :-( Heat pump replacement motor is about 10% of total installation. System supposedly pays for itself in about 5 years - when i expect the pump needs renewing.

We are though meanwhile installing a 9 KW cast iron, glass fronted, wood burning fire insert, with electric fans in place of the totally uselessly inefficient open fire that only currently pumps all of our existing internal warmth into the atmosphere when used sad.gif and produces almost no heat unless you are right next to the thing or the fire is rediculously huge! But the more efficient insert can be used to pump less warm air from the far end of the house into the insert so that the warm air flows to all parts of the house as well or take warmth directly from the insert to other parts of the house. An exciting possibility if this actually works and we can position the air channels. And since the house appears to stay warm, once heated fully, for several days with only a few heaters on, this method alone will work for us providing the neighbours dont go nuts about the smoke!! wink.gif

At the end of it all the combination of fire and ground heat will mean next owner will have very cheap costs to heat the house which will make it easier to sell i am fairly certain and meanwhile we get the knowledge we are unlikely to be exposed to large heating bills when it already got to minus 23.5 Centigrade before christmas and is going to be colder in February for sure. Almost certainly we got the house cheaper because of the ancient heating system which becomes more scary the more we get to realise how worn out it is!

#5 underling

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Posted 03 September 2010 - 01:41 PM

QUOTE (aliveandkicking @ Dec 23 2009, 04:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I am currently on a very old oil based system maybe using about 4000 liters a year.

Apparently it is easily possible to drill in a variety of directions thru the granite here to get a loop of circulating fluid a few hundred feet beneath the ground just by the drilling. Dont know anything about it so far.

Anybody done this?


If you're still investigating I found this which may be of interest to you.




Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.

#6 lupercal

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Posted 19 September 2010 - 10:48 AM

QUOTE (underling @ Sep 3 2010, 01:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
If you're still investigating I found this which may be of interest to you.



Im interested to know before building a house, what could I do to make it easier to retro fit a heat pump. They are expensive now but if the price comes down and they are easy to fit then I am interested.


QUOTE
The thing is the future isn't something that's rammed down our throats. The future is a choice. The human race is six or seven billion odd people each of which is making choices every day. You add up all those choices and that's the direction of humanity. Each of us has fairly small voices, but you add up a lot of small voices and you get big voices.
James Gosling Coder.

#7 underling

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 07:53 PM

QUOTE (lupercal @ Sep 19 2010, 11:48 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Im interested to know before building a house, what could I do to make it easier to retro fit a heat pump. They are expensive now but if the price comes down and they are easy to fit then I am interested.


Plan to use a heating system that requires lower temperature water (for example underfloor heating) or if you're intending to use wall hung radiators oversize them and in the meantime throttle their heat output by fitting thermostats. I'm assuming you are looking at ground source as opposed to air but take into consideration the size of the pump and that the pipework manifolds may be unsightly. If you're planning a garage I'd suggest you plan to put all the hardware in there so size the garage accordingly.

e2a (apologies, was interrupted by an errand)

You may also wish to look at how you will initially store your hot water if using a thermal store for hot water (hot water cylinder). Depending on how much time you expect to pass before you retrofit, it may be worth initially installing a cylinder (I'd recommend unvented) set up for use with a heat pump. This will mean a greater initial outlay of course so if you don't expect to retrofit within the guarantee period of the cylinder (generally between 10 and 25 years depending upon the manufacturer) you'd be wasting the additional cost difference compared to a standard conventional cylinder. I can't emphasise this enough Lupercal, get a qualified engineer to install this and get it regularly serviced/checked. You should be aware that cylinders can be a time bomb (literally!) .................



From:


................ and the cloud of smoke? That's high temperature water. You wouldn't want to be anywhere near that if it went off.
Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.

#8 lupercal

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Posted 02 October 2010 - 07:57 PM

Thanks
QUOTE
The thing is the future isn't something that's rammed down our throats. The future is a choice. The human race is six or seven billion odd people each of which is making choices every day. You add up all those choices and that's the direction of humanity. Each of us has fairly small voices, but you add up a lot of small voices and you get big voices.
James Gosling Coder.

#9 ILoveGreen

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Posted 06 December 2010 - 10:38 PM

Heat pumps are great alternative to oil-fired boilers. However the prices of heat pumps are a bit expensive and it is difficult to fit in. Another thing you need to consider is the insulation of the property and the heating system size. If these two conditions are not met you will incur high electricity costs to run the system. I suggest you replace your oil-fired boiler with another oil-fired burner because this is more cost effective.




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