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#41 Maximilian

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Posted 26 February 2008 - 08:32 AM

It always surprises me that electric cars get such a good press. They are horribly ungreen unless the electricity is generated from a renewable source.



Exactly. It borders on silly. People think they are going green because they plug in their car. 51% of power generation is coal. Less than 1% is solar and wind COMBINED. Plug in the car and you're likely burning coal somewhere else.

The Tesla roadster, assuming the new high-efficiency (58%) power generating plants, can get up to 65 MPG (gasoline equivalent). Assuming the older style plants, it's only 35 mpg. That's admittedly pretty good, but the same as a Prius. I really wonder what the battery range, and thus energy used per mile, is in the real world? I have heard that if you try one of those 4 second 0-60 runs, the battery is about 10% drained right there. I haven't confirmed this. It should be a simple calculation considering efficiency at full throttle and work done; and taking into consideration the min and max charge levels for the battery.

Considering how much energy is currently used each day to run our vehicles (37 TRILLION BTUs every day!!); if the plan is to really switch from burning fuel on-site (internal combustion) to using a battery, with energy created centrally, then the electrical demand from the grid will be astronomical. If this is to be our future, then Warren Buffet was absolutely correct to start buying railroads and rail equipment. The demand for coal will continue to SKYROCKET. Nat. gas will also, but only as long as prices stay low enough. If they get too high, we switch right back to coal.

#42 DrBubb

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Posted 27 February 2008 - 12:16 AM

Exactly. It borders on silly. People think they are going green because they plug in their car. 51% of power generation is coal. Less than 1% is solar and wind COMBINED. Plug in the car and you're likely burning coal somewhere else.


Electric cars are not the answer.
Hybrid cars are not the answer.
Getting rid of cars are the answer - CARS ARE LAST - CAL !

We need to redesign our living, working, and transporting arrangement -
as we move into a sustainable post-Suburban world
The market is "bipolar", swinging back and forth from a focus on Inflation to Deflation. Bet on swings; and stay flexible. What are bipolar markets? See: http://tinyurl.com/GEI-Manix

#43 Maximilian

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Posted 27 February 2008 - 08:15 PM

Electric cars are not the answer.
Hybrid cars are not the answer.
Getting rid of cars are the answer - CARS ARE LAST - CAL !

We need to redesign our living, working, and transporting arrangement -
as we move into a sustainable post-Suburban world


Agreed; but, humans will do what humans want to do, until it is more PAINFUL to keep doing it rather than changing. It's that simple. Humans all also get to vote (in one form or another). Therefore, policy makers will also tend to structure things in a manner consistent with what the masses want. It used to be that only American had the audacity to own cars and drive to the store when they need a packet of sugar. Now, everyone wants to be like us. Converting something into energy in order to do work (drive a car) will continue to be the key. The battery (fossil fuel) that was charged by the sun over 200m years is being depleted. The low hanging fruit is running out. Next is the harder to reach stuff. Eventually, humans will have to find a way of "eating".

#44 DrBubb

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Posted 01 December 2008 - 01:33 AM

Electric vehicles expected to dominate market by 2030

As 45% of greenhouse gas emissions come from transportation, there will be no solution to climate change without a replacement for the internal combustion engine. The Tesla two-seat Roadster is a high performance electric sports-car with a $109,000 price tag. Tesla’s Roadster does 0-60 mph in 3.9 seconds and can go 250 miles on a $2.50 electricity charge. It effectively covers the high-end electric vehicle (EV) market. The last weeks saw several developments indicating that more affordable EVs are near, with market domination expected by 2030.
Nissan announced 10 days ago it had signed agreements with the governors of Oregon and Tennessee for a limited release of its EV in 2010. "It's a brand-new, ground-up vehicle, well designed, with all the amenities, crash-tested,” said Oregon Gov. Perry. His state is already building charging stations and Tennessee is the site of Nissan’s US headquarters and one of its two US factories. The first EVs will be for “government and commercial fleets” in those states and will help iron out any problems.
Last Tuesday, Nissan/Renault announced it had signed a similar agreement with Portugal, delivery beginning in 2011. In return, Portugal agreed to build 1300 charging stations and target 20% EVs for its government fleet. Nissan/Renault has signed similar contracts with Israel, Denmark and Japan's Kanagawa prefecture. Mass-marketing of the EV will begin in 2012.

In an interview on the same day, Nissan/Renault CEO Carlos Ghosn said his EV without battery would cost the same as a conventional car. The battery would be leased at a monthly fee, which along with recharging costs would be on par with fuel costs for conventional vehicles. When questioned about the battery’s short range, reported at 100 miles, Ghosn said that will improve with time. "If you wait for the perfect battery, you wait till 2030." Nissan/Renault has an agreement with Better Place, an Israeli based company, to develop a worldwide presence to lease EV batteries and build networks of stations for battery exchange and re-charge to extend the driving range.

Ghosn believes EVs could account for 10% of global motor vehicle demand by 2020 and 50% by 2030. If Nissan/Renault’s EV engineering is as good as this pre-rollout, they will dominate that growing market.
BMW unveiled its city EV on 20 November. The two-seat Mini E runs on a lithium-ion battery, gets up to 150 miles per charge and recharges in 4.5 hours. BMW will place 500 EV Minis in California, New York, New Jersey US and Berlin Germany by March. The leasing fees are $850 a month, $500 more than its Mini Cooper S. The high leasing price puts the Mini E in a luxury-car price range as it includes the cost of a fixed battery. If this is the case, Nissan/Renault’s EV with its low entry price and a leased battery could have an advantage, even with a later market entry.

San Francisco EV capital of US

At a press conference last Thursday, mayors of 3 San Francisco Bay Area cities announced public-private investments to establish the area as the “EV Capital of the U.S.” The mayors are teaming up with Better Place, a Nissan partner, to build an open network to service fixed- and exchange-battery vehicles to enable long-distance trips. Better Place says the EV stations will be installed by 2012. The San Francisco Bay Area is the home of Tesla.

Ireland targets 40% EV by 2030

The Irish government announced a target last Wednesday of 10% EV by 2020 and 40 % by 2030. The announcement by Irish Energy Minister Eamon Ryan of the Green Party, said the ultimate target was "to switch our transport system off oil." Ryan said Ireland was well suited to switch because of its size. A charged battery would travel 160 km, enough to get from Dublin on the east coast to Galway on the west coast.

Utilities to push EV

US power companies are planning to buy several thousand EVs and plug-in hybrids in bulk to maximise night-time revenues. Most of the cars would be used in service fleets, but some could be made available to company employees and even to customers. Top executives at a half-dozen power companies have been informally discussing a collective purchase for the past six months, said Bill Johnson, chief executive for Progress Energy in Raleigh NC.
The strategy would allow two of the nation's biggest polluters, the utility sector and auto industry to reduce GHG emissions. The move would chip away at the global energy dynamic by shifting fuel sales from foreign oil nations to local electric utilities.
The market is "bipolar", swinging back and forth from a focus on Inflation to Deflation. Bet on swings; and stay flexible. What are bipolar markets? See: http://tinyurl.com/GEI-Manix

#45 thuydung88

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Posted 16 March 2009 - 05:04 AM

An electric car stores its energy on board—typically in batteries, but alternatively with capacitors or flywheel storage devices. Or it may generate energy using a fuel cell or generator. A fuel cell is a specialized form of battery that combines hydrogen with oxygen in a chemical reaction that produces electricity and water vapor. Unlike an electric cell or battery, a fuel cell does not run down or require recharging; it operates as long as the fuel and an oxidizer are supplied continuously from outside the cell. Most current versions of electric cars use some combination of these energy sources. “Pure” electric cars, however, run only on batteries and need a charger to replenish the battery's power from an electrical outlet.

The hybrid electric vehicle (HEV) uses both an electric motor or motors and a gasoline or diesel engine to extend the car’s range and often to provide additional power. A conventional HEV, such as the Toyota Prius, uses battery power up to certain speeds and the gasoline engine for higher speeds, and can draw on both power sources if needed. The batteries are recharged by the gasoline engine, which acts as a generator, and in most models by the energy generated from braking. Another type of HEV, known as a plug-in hybrid electric vehicle (PHEV), uses an extra battery or batteries to extend the range of the vehicle. The PHEV can be plugged into a typical 120-volt electric outlet, like those found in most households, for a recharge. Regardless of the energy source, an electric car needs a controller, which is connected to the accelerator pedal, for directing the flow of electricity from the energy source to the motor.

Most electric cars use lead-acid batteries, but new types of batteries, including zinc-chlorine, nickel metal hydride, and sodium-sulfur, are becoming more common. The conventional HEV uses nickel metal hydride, while some automakers contemplate using lithium-ion batteries; General Motors, for example, may use these in their hybrid electric vehicle prototype known as the Volt. The motor of an electric car harnesses the battery's electrical energy by converting it to kinetic energy. The driver simply switches on the power, selects “Forward” or “Reverse” with another switch, and steps on the accelerator pedal.

#46 Anadult

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Posted 21 April 2009 - 05:09 PM

Look at ZENN Motors Co. {ZNN.V Venture Exchange Toronto} stock is on the move. Looks Like the EESTOR capacitor is on it's way out into production on time this fall/09. Not a battery but a Capacitor. The amps equal the size of the cap (farads) times the change in volts divided by time it discharged.
i = c * Dv/Dt
Biggest invention of the 21st century will be ultracaps.

#47 Shamrock Energy

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Posted 02 June 2009 - 12:58 AM

You sure should have included our new ambient temperature retrofit for electrics and hybrids, with our unit on a Toyota hybrid we made over 4700 miles without running the gas engine or plugging in, as well we took a low cost electric scooter made in China that was capable of 35 to 40 miles on an 8 hour charge my kids drove it around the yard for over 1200 miles and never plugged it in, our system can run anything from a cell phone or ipod to a locomotive or small city, no hazardous materials, no fuels, easy and low cost to manufacture, the only issue we have found is we have shown, proven, videoed, jumped through hoops to find 850K funding to get launched and everyone wants to own control other that we can get funding from China any time or we can sell outright to the Saudi's and let it get buried, and at this point we are close to making the decision to sell out and let it get shelved.

#48 pliskin619

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Posted 14 June 2009 - 08:13 PM

we are all slaves to big oil you want freedom?
have a look at my solution www.freethegreenenergy.blogspot.com

#49 littledavesab

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Posted 16 June 2009 - 05:12 PM

prototype launched today - London UK - open source !!!!!

............ but so many false starts - how far will this one get I wonder....

Still its a step in the right direction

http://www.newscient...ref=online-news


A concept car that attempts to sidestep the three main hurdles to the dream of hydrogen-fuelled highways was unveiled in London, UK, today.

Like other hydrogen cars, the Riversimple Urban Car (RUC) is powered by a fuel cell that combines hydrogen with oxygen from the air to release energy and nothing more toxic than water.

Its makers claim that by starting from scratch to build a small, efficient car they can make it commercially viable more quickly than the major auto manufacturers experimenting with adapting more conventional cars to hydrogen. Honda predicts its FCX Clarity hydrogen car will enter mass production in 2018, but Riversimple is aiming to lease its first fleet in 2011 and mass produce in 2013.

see New Scientist website for rest of article

If you're now hoping to be the first RUC owner on your street, you're in for a disappointment. The car will not be on public sale, but instead will be leased. "That means we are driven to encourage people to keep them for as long as possible rather than replacing their vehicle quickly, as is usual in the car business," says Spowers.

He hopes to lease the first fleet in 2011, in a small UK city. The leasing cost will include free access to a dedicated hydrogen station operated by the company and is predicted to be around £200 ($330) a month.

----------------------------
+ see also

http://www.riversimp...LatestNews.aspx

Inflation / Deflation ?? How about STAGFLATION everyone is right but everyone is wrong!
- (Update) Everyone wrong...... except Goldman Sachs apparently !!!!!!!

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#50 ILoveGreen

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Posted 17 March 2010 - 11:05 PM

QUOTE (DrBubb @ Feb 27 2008, 01:16 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Electric cars are not the answer.
Hybrid cars are not the answer.
Getting rid of cars are the answer - CARS ARE LAST - CAL !

We need to redesign our living, working, and transporting arrangement -
as we move into a sustainable post-Suburban world


I so agree with this. If we could take some of our focus away from the individual cars, and turn that focus to efficient, low carbon-footprint public transportation - we'd all be in better shape. If only we could work on taking away some of that human-bred pride, we might be in good shape! laugh.gif

#51 DrBubb

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Posted 05 May 2010 - 12:31 AM

Want to be crushed like a beer can?

Try this car:


Available in California since Oct.2009 - starts at $25,000

With this one:


You can fly to work
The market is "bipolar", swinging back and forth from a focus on Inflation to Deflation. Bet on swings; and stay flexible. What are bipolar markets? See: http://tinyurl.com/GEI-Manix

#52 jeffry

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Posted 08 September 2010 - 03:30 PM

The Electric car can reduce considerable amont of Green house gases. powerlines are high voltage, because the high voltage means less current and therefore less resistance DISIP less energy to heat. Tesla wanted to put it in the atmosphere, but his experience never quite took off (sorry for the pun unintentional). Storage has always been the issue.

#53 ILoveGreen

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Posted 12 September 2010 - 05:46 AM

I don't think there's a big difference with electrics and not when it comes to car. Cars powered by electricity is also using coal because in order to create the electricity or power that we are using everyday most companies are using coal so there's no difference in that. It's still the same so better to just get a hybrid rather than cars that are powered by electricity. In hybrid we can guarantee that it is environment friendly and is saving gas.

#54 lupercal

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Posted 16 September 2010 - 10:29 AM

QUOTE (ILoveGreen @ Sep 12 2010, 06:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I don't think there's a big difference with electrics and not when it comes to car. Cars powered by electricity is also using coal because in order to create the electricity or power that we are using everyday most companies are using coal so there's no difference in that. It's still the same so better to just get a hybrid rather than cars that are powered by electricity. In hybrid we can guarantee that it is environment friendly and is saving gas.

Chinese scientist working in the UK invents wee powered fuel cell

http://2ndgreenrevol...red-fuel-cells/

QUOTE
Not Just for Treating Jellyfish Stings; Urine Powered Fuel Cells
by Justin Manger on August 27th, 2010

Is the urea – also called carbamide – found in urine a waste that may be too precious to waste? NewScientist hints that it might be a new source of fuel for producing renewable energy. “An adult produces enough urine each year to drive a car 1678 miles (2700 km) on energy from the urea it contains, according to calculations by Shanwen Tao, who develops urea-powered fuel cells at Heriot-Watt University in Edinburgh, UK.” Dr Shanwen Tao and his research partner Dr Rong Lan have developed a prototype (diagram below) that does just that. Dr. Tao explains how he came upon the idea:

“Growing up in rural eastern China I was aware of the use of urea as an agricultural fertiliser. When I became a chemist and was looking at fuel cell development I thought of using it in the process. We are only at prototype stage at present, but if this renewable material can be used as a commercially viable and environmentally friendly energy source then we will be absolutely delighted, and many people around the world will benefit.”



But how is it collected?
QUOTE
The thing is the future isn't something that's rammed down our throats. The future is a choice. The human race is six or seven billion odd people each of which is making choices every day. You add up all those choices and that's the direction of humanity. Each of us has fairly small voices, but you add up a lot of small voices and you get big voices.
James Gosling Coder.

#55 ILoveGreen

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Posted 19 September 2010 - 08:52 AM

A lot of people told that electric car is a zero emissions vehicle (ZEV.) If the electricity comes from a clean source the EV will be part of a Zero emissions vehicle transportation system. Even the combination of an electric vehicle and a coal fired power station is cleaner than a gasoline vehicle. http://www.electroau.../pollmyth.shtml

#56 Jake

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 04:03 AM

I don't think there's a big difference with electrics and not when it comes to car. Cars powered by electricity is also using coal because in order to create the electricity or power that we are using everyday most companies are using coal so there's no difference in that. It's still the same so better to just get a hybrid rather than cars that are powered by electricity. In hybrid we can guarantee that it is environment friendly and is saving gas.

Well, they should sell the Nissan Leaf, for example, as a 'set' with enough solar panels for your garage/house to charge it. That way we save on using coal and its electric other than for the cost of the car and the panels plus installation.
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#57 DrBubb

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 04:59 AM

Nissan Leaf
Posted Image

Park it here?
Posted Image

You can also think of the Leaf as a storage battery on wheels

Solar costs are dropping...


Berkeley, CA — The installed cost of solar photovoltaic (PV) power systems in the United States fell substantially in 2010 and into the first half of 2011, according to the latest edition of an annual PV cost tracking report released by the Department of Energy’s Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory (Berkeley Lab).

The average installed cost of residential and commercial PV systems completed in 2010 fell by roughly 17 percent from the year before, and by an additional 11 percent within the first six months of 2011. These recent installed cost reductions are attributable, in part, to dramatic reductions in the price of PV modules. Galen Barbose of Berkeley Lab’s Environmental Energy Technologies Division and co-author of the report explains: “Wholesale PV module prices have fallen precipitously since about 2008, and those upstream cost reductions have made their way through to consumers.”

===

http://newscenter.lb...ing-the-sun-iv/

The market is "bipolar", swinging back and forth from a focus on Inflation to Deflation. Bet on swings; and stay flexible. What are bipolar markets? See: http://tinyurl.com/GEI-Manix

#58 DrBubb

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 05:09 AM

BATTERIES (& Condensors) are important

Production of Electric Transport Vehicles, Motor-wheels and Super Condensers

Supercondensers
Posted Image

Ecological clean traction and impulse supercondenser banks are the quick-recharged sources of electric power with long cycle life. The less charging time is achieved in comparison with storage batteries! They are intended for electric power supply to various users of low and medium power to which severe requirements are applied on ecology cleanness, cycle lifetime and readiness for operation.

more: http://www.energia.r...rcondenser.html
The market is "bipolar", swinging back and forth from a focus on Inflation to Deflation. Bet on swings; and stay flexible. What are bipolar markets? See: http://tinyurl.com/GEI-Manix

#59 PositiveDeviant

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Posted 20 January 2013 - 09:12 PM

Here's John Thomas (aka MadHedgeFundTrader) on his iLeaf...;



"The Final Word on the Electric Nissan Leaf

After driving my all-electric Nissan Leaf four-door hatchback for two years, my final conclusion is that it is absolutely the perfect second car for most American families. Some 90% of all US driving is less than 40 miles a day, and this car is targeted at that market.

If a spouse has a reliable daily round trip commute of less than the car’s 80-mile range, this is your car. The ideal combination is to own a Leaf and a hybrid SUV for those long distance ski weekends, visits to out-of-state relatives, and road trips in general.

The real revelation comes when you realize that this is a car that creates its own fuel. When I depart the Berkeley Hills and reach the entrance to the Oakland Bay Bridge ten miles away, I have more power than when I started. That’s because the trip is entirely downhill. Wow!

There are other benefits beyond flipping your local Exxon station the bird when you cruise by. I often find handwritten notes stuck under my windshield wipers from young women asking for rides. When you are 61, such offers come increasingly few and far between. That alone is worth the cost of purchase. Now, I only use gas station for their toilets and air pumps, which somehow seems appropriate.

You can get all of this for $38,000, of which $7,500 can be applied as a federal tax credit. Or you can go to your local Nissan dealer, where you can pick up a used model in new condition with 16,000 miles on the clock for $20,000. Given that you are no longer spending $4,000 a year on gas and tune ups, you easily amortize the entire cost of a new car in in ten years. Expect to get a lot of thumbs up from bystanders as you silently drive by.

This is not a souped up golf cart by any means. After comfortably sliding my 6’4′ frame behind the wheel, I asked the salesman to pack the car with beefcake so I could give it a real test. Three farm boys from Tennessee, real heifers, dutifully piled in. It made no difference; the car took off like a Porsche.

When I first got the car, I tore off down the freeway at 90 mph, gleefully weaving in and out of the lumbering, gas guzzling GM Suburban’s, Cadillac Escalades, and Ford Excursions that inhabit California state highway 24. Eventually I throttled off, lest I get California’s first zero emissions speeding ticket.
The Leaf can be recharged from dead flat at home on a 240-volt plug in eight hours, or at your friend’s house in 16 hours at 110 volts. A GPS mapping system constantly displays your remaining range, as well as the locations of the nearest charging stations. If you run out of juice on the freeway, Nissan offers free roadside service with an immediate recharge. With a 600-pound lithium ion battery lining the bottom of the chassis, it has tremendous stability, and corners like it is on rails. The battery comes with an eight-year warranty and a ten-year life.


One problem is that the car is utterly soundless. That is an issue driving in shopping mall parking lots, when clueless kids, especially those wearing ear buds, walk directly in front of a moving car. It is just a matter of time before the state mandates required cartones for electric cars in motion.

When I took delivery of one of the first American Leaf’s, I was a pioneer. The entire San Francisco Bay area had only 25 public charging stations. More than a few times I ducked into sushi shops with a 100-foot extension cord in search of enough juice to get home. Once, I convinced the bemused parking attendants at the San Francisco Opera House to unplug their coffee machine to recharge my car. Even then, I coasted into my garage on my last couple of electrons, the car shouting warnings at me all the way. The pathfinder days are now long gone. Today, there are over 500 charging stations in this part of California.

I have to say that it helped being a pilot and a scientist. Calculation of range and fuel consumed to destination come as second nature to me. If I didn’t, I would have found my place at the bottom of the Atlantic, the Pacific, or the Persian Gulf, ages ago. So I would think twice about buying one of these for a right-brained high school English teacher with no technical aptitude whatsoever.

Figuring out the car’s actual performance was a mutual learning experience for both Nissan and me. There were quite a few calls to their engineers to discuss glitches and workarounds in the early days. Finally, Nissan sent a product development guy from Japan to discuss design of the second generation Leaf. By the way, their stock has been on fire for the past three months, up some 25%, as the weakening yen boosts their global competitiveness.

My local utility has been cheering from the sidelines. PG&E is offering a special Plug-in-Vehicle rate of only 4.6 cent per kilowatt hour from 12:00 am to 7:00 am, compared to the standard top tier rate of 40 cents per hour, an 89% discount. That means the Leaf’s 80-mile trip cost me 92 cents. This is the same as buying all the gasoline I want at 23 cents per gallon! In other words, the fuel is basically free.

When I asked the chief engineer about maintenance costs, I got a blank stare. Then he answered in a deadpan fashion, ‘there is no maintenance’. During the first 100,000 miles, the only expenses will be for brake pads and tires, as the 107 horsepower electric induction engine only has five moving parts operating at room temperature. Even the brake pads last forever, since the regenerative braking system does most of the stopping to generate more electric power. Instead of tune-ups, you get software upgrades. Only the tires need to be rotated every 8,000 miles.

Alas, it is time for me to move on from my beloved Leaf. As with a first high school love, the excitement of the unfamiliar eventually wears off, and you start looking to trade up. I also could use more performance. In the electric, zero emissions car world, that means buying a brand Tesla S-1 performance model (TSLA), which I will pick up at the Fremont, California factory as soon as I finish writing this letter. I’ll let you know how she works out, once I have broken her in."
Posted Image
Posted Image

Sounds great as long as there are charging stations or you don't need to go far...

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#60 Jake

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 02:55 PM

That's a fine looking roof! And a witty article on the Leaf. I'm sure the solar and the Leaf/electric cars will play a part in the transition stage ( ie for 30-50 years or so).
"We are reaping what has been sown over the last three decades of creating a grotesquely unequal society with an ethos of grab as much as you can by any means. A society of looters created by MPs and their expenses, bankers and their bonuses, tax-evading corporations, hacking journalists, bribe-taking police officers, and now a group of alienated kids are seizing their chance. This is not to condone but to understand." - John McDonnell MP


"Things got a bit out of hand & we'd had a few drinks. We smashed the place up and Boris set fire to the toilets."
David Cameron, 7th June 1986.




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