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#21 P.V.Power

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Posted 22 January 2007 - 09:20 AM

It always surprises me that electric cars get such a good press. They are horribly ungreen unless the electricity is generated from a renewable source.


"Horribly ungreen" is a gross exaggeration of course. There are environmental and health benefits in the congested areas where such vehicles currently operate.

The ultimate ideal - for me and many others at least - is for all road vehicles to be electric, and for all power stations to be generating power in the greenest way. There is a long way to go on the latter - but plenty of pressure to do so. But frustration at slowness in one end of the system is no excuse for postponing efforts at the other end. It is perfectly sensible to push for progress all along the line and to applaud each step that is made in the right direction.

Campaigning FOR greener electricity production doesn't have to involve campaigning AGAINST electric vehicles. Don't be such a grumpy curmudgeon! :)

And besides - the move towards all-electric vehicles is happening anyway. Check out today's update from Tanfield (TAN). Watch out for an imminent fleet announcement from Modec of Coventry (Tesco have bought 15 of their electric vans and are coming for more). Have a look at the Subaru R1e - a beautiful little electric car which is selling nicely in Japan (where tax concessions favour it). Subaru confirm they are aware of huge demand for them to market it worldwide - which they will do so in 2009 - by which time the high price of battery packs is expected to have begun tumbling. (At present the batteries typically make up half the price of a car - and the R1e would cost aupwards of £17k in the UK now). See the Phoenix Motorcars sports utility vehicle (above).

Following the succes of its 7.5t Newton truck, Tanfield is pressing ahead with introducing a 12t version for the US market, followed later by an electric artic. Plus a new large-Transit sized Edison van range.

2007 looks like being a breakthrough year in terms of public realisation that electric vehicles are arriving rather than just being talked about.

That King Canute knew a thing or two about the futility of trying to stem the tide. The tide is running in favour of electric vehicles - with or without you on board Macaque :rolleyes:


pvp

PS: I notice your only other posting appears to be an attack on another of the greener vehicle fuels. Do you have some vested interest in oil-based transport?
If we pick a fight with this planet, we lose. How dumb is that?

#22 Macaque

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Posted 22 January 2007 - 09:30 AM

"Horribly ungreen" is a gross exaggeration of course. There are environmental and health benefits in the congested areas where such vehicles currently operate.

The ultimate ideal - for me and many others at least - is for all road vehicles to be electric, and for all power stations to be generating power in the greenest way. There is a long way to go on the latter - but plenty of pressure to do so. But frustration at slowness in one end of the system is no excuse for postponing efforts at the other end. It is perfectly sensible to push for progress all along the line and to applaud each step that is made in the right direction.

Campaigning FOR greener electricity production doesn't have to involve campaigning AGAINST electric vehicles. Dont't be such a grumpy curmudgeon!

And besides - the move towards all-electric vehicles is happening anyway. Check out today's update from Tanfield (TAN). Watch out for an imminent fleet announcement from Modec of Coventry (Tesco have bought 15 of their electric vans and are coming for more). Have a look at the Subaru R1e - a beautiful little electric car which is selling nicely in Japan (where tax concessions favour it). Subaru confirm they aware of huge demand for them to market it worldwide - which they will do so in 2009 - by which time the high price of battery packs is expected to have begun tumbling. (At present the batteries typically make up half the price of a car - and the R1e would cost aupwards of £17k in the UK now). See the Phoenix Motorcars sports utility vehicle (above).

Following the succes of its 7.5t Newton truck, Tanfield is pressing ahead with introducing a 12t version for the US market, followed later by an electric artic. Plus a new large-Transit sized Edison van range.

2007 looks like being a breakthrough year in terms of public reralisation that electric vehicles are arriving rather than just being talked about.

That King Canute knew a thing or two about the futility of trying to stem the tide. The tide is running in favour of electric vehicles - with or without you on board Macaque :)
pvp

PS: I notice your only other posting appears to be an attack on another of the greener vehicle fuels. Do you have some vested interest in oil-based transport?

Electric cars are nimby cars. They are cleaner where they are used but they cause much higher CO2 and acid emmissions. We should actively campaign against them unless the source of electricity is renewable.

#23 P.V.Power

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Posted 22 January 2007 - 09:57 AM

Electric cars are nimby cars. They are cleaner where they are used but they cause much higher CO2 and acid emmissions. We should actively campaign against them unless the source of electricity is renewable.


Methinks you have totally missed the point I was making macaque - you identify the bad end of the chain but you insist on campaigning against the good end.

If the power generators are the bad guys, campaign against the bad guys. Don't use their behaviour as some excuse to attack someone else and delay progress in areas where progress is possible. Otherwise it sounds like your agenda is nothing to do with the environment at all, and you are merely hired to do the rounds of green forums rubbishing every threat to the oilbased carmakers.. :)

(and as we all know - there are people who do just that)

pvp
If we pick a fight with this planet, we lose. How dumb is that?

#24 Macaque

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Posted 22 January 2007 - 10:38 AM

Methinks you have totally missed the point I was making macaque - you identify the bad end of the chain but you insist on campaigning against the good end.

If the power generators are the bad guys, campaign against the bad guys. Don't use their behaviour as some excuse to attack someone else and delay progress in areas where progress is possible. Otherwise it sounds like your agenda is nothing to do with the environment at all, and you are merely hired to do the rounds of green forums rubbishing every threat to the oilbased carmakers.. :)

(and as we all know - there are people who do just that)

pvp

You can take it how you like but a solution is only as good as the weakest link. Right now we burn a lot of coal and gas to generate our electricity. Electric cars will always be less efficient because there are energy losses between the combustion stage and the driving stage that conventional cars don't have.

Until we have a good source of renewable electricity, we should not be developing electric cars. Cars driven by biodesiel or ethanol are a better solution. They make zero net contribution to atmospheric CO2 (since the CO2 has be captured by the plants).

Without cheap renewable electricity, electric cars are horribly ungreen and people should wake up to this.

#25 the_innovation_Station

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Posted 22 January 2007 - 09:20 PM

a solution for electric cars put high efficenty wind turbines on the roof to recharge the batterys and generator brakes to cut back on estrnal chargins easy to do if u have the designs

the innovation ststion has

#26 P.V.Power

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Posted 22 January 2007 - 11:37 PM

another day, another step along the way. This time it's Mitsubishi -

"...The company plans to conduct test drives using the batteries in prototype vehicles by as early as next year. MHI showed a prototype electric vehicle powered by li-ion batteries last year at the Renewable Energy 2006 International Exhibition in Japan. The company also reportedly plans to develop electric motors for cars, with the intention of packaging batteries and motors together..."


http://www.greencarc...subis.html#more
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#27 Macaque

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Posted 23 January 2007 - 08:42 AM

another day, another step along the way. This time it's Mitsubishi -

"...The company plans to conduct test drives using the batteries in prototype vehicles by as early as next year. MHI showed a prototype electric vehicle powered by li-ion batteries last year at the Renewable Energy 2006 International Exhibition in Japan. The company also reportedly plans to develop electric motors for cars, with the intention of packaging batteries and motors together..."
http://www.greencarc...subis.html#more

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#28 the_innovation_Station

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Posted 07 February 2007 - 01:12 AM

why not scrap the electric cars all togather and replace it with a high speed water driven turbine engine on a hydrulic transmitiona lot easyer than anyone thinks aswell as less maintinace and no biproduct clean enough energy??

#29 theChuz

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Posted 07 February 2007 - 05:09 AM

why not scrap the electric cars all togather and replace it with a high speed water driven turbine engine on a hydrulic transmitiona lot easyer than anyone thinks aswell as less maintinace and no biproduct clean enough energy??


because you need a power source to turn the turbine, give it up.

#30 JBFTI

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Posted 07 February 2007 - 08:18 AM

why not scrap the electric cars all togather and replace it with a high speed water driven turbine engine on a hydrulic transmitiona lot easyer than anyone thinks aswell as less maintinace and no biproduct clean enough energy??

Wasn't there some engine built in France that ran off compressed air?

#31 the_innovation_Station

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Posted 07 February 2007 - 01:16 PM

compressed air does not have the power water or liquid of some kind i made an air engine when i was in grade 9 it ranon 30psi it was 5 hp briggs n strattin

#32 room305

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Posted 07 February 2007 - 01:51 PM

compressed air does not have the power water or liquid of some kind i made an air engine when i was in grade 9 it ranon 30psi it was 5 hp briggs n strattin


Let me guess, you're selling it and if anyone requires proof they can email you for a crappy MS-paint picture of the engine?
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#33 malco

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Posted 07 February 2007 - 10:34 PM

It always surprises me that electric cars get such a good press. They are horribly ungreen unless the electricity is generated from a renewable source.


I would not say that they are exactly horribly ungreen. As these cars show, electric cars tend to be much lighter and less wasteful than IC cars. Their exhaust is far away at the power station rather than in schoolkids' faces.

The process of manufacturing, recycling and disposing of the batteries does deserve more attantion than it gets, in terms of heavy metals pollution and the CO2 produced by the sophisticated processes required to produce batteries. I have never seen a study that takes this into account.

I don't think people are all that enthusiastic about electric cars, they are just more enthusiastic about them than push-bikes.

There is a big difference between petrol and diesel engine efficiency, especially in the urban cycle. Petrol engines have to be throttled, because you can't alter the air-fuel ratio much or it causes combustion problems. The throttling causes very poor efficiency if the engine is driven at low loads a lot, as it is in town. I suspect that electric cars do give petrol engines a run for their money in town driving, other things being equal, despite transmission losses for electric cars.

For diesels it is a different story, because they have a fuel rack rather than a throttle. This is because it does not matter if the air-fuel ratio varies over a wide range (in which respect diesels are rather like gas turbines). The whole set-up is much stronger, runs at much higher thermodynamic conditions and is much heavier, but efficiency is far higher in town.

Biodiesels would be just great if you could make the stuff in quantity without sending up grain prices and causing starvation in the Third World, and if you could grow it without large inputs of fossil fuels in various forms. Apparently there are algae that have a large oil content and can in theory yield large amounts of biodiesel from solar energy. It is just that nobody has actually demonstrated the technology at any scale. It may hold great potential. We shall just have to see.
Will economics be single-handed?

#34 P.V.Power

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Posted 08 February 2007 - 05:49 PM

JBFTI - Yes there is a French company developing compressed air cars. In fact there is news this week:

Tata Motors, India's largest automobile company, has signed an agreement with MDI (Moteur Developpment International) of France for the application in India of MDI's compressed air engines. MDI has already applied its CAT (Compressed Air Technology) engine in a prototype city car, the MiniCAT. The agreement between Tata Motors and MDI envisages Tata supporting further development and refinement of the technology, and its application and licensing for India...


Full story at http://www.greencarc...s_sig.html#more

MDI website http://www.theaircar.com/
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#35 savo

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Posted 12 May 2007 - 08:28 PM

BUMP

Knew nothing about the G-Whiz (sp?) until I saw it on BBC news the other day. Quite a bad bit of press, unless you're trying to sell top gear magazine. Plenty of safety concerns in the event of a crash. Was quite a misleading piece given how it didn't (as far as i can recall) state the speed required to hit an immobile object and create the carnage it showed (a few times). However a spokesman pointed out many london users would not be averaging much in terms of mph, but by then though I think the damage was done.
Guess the real message was "buy a 4x4" and swat these silly motors like a bug on your neck. Bizarre.

#36 No6

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Posted 09 July 2007 - 09:09 PM

Tesla Roadster as tested by Jay Leno.

"Would I buy one? Well yes, I would be interested in it. Right now theyíre $100,000, so consequently itís something rich people would buy. But most new technology starts out with rich people. Antilock brakes started out on the big Cadillacs and Lincolns. They didnít start out on economy cars. To start with itís the rich buyers that can absorb the cost. Anybody who buys a Tesla now is making a statement about buying responsibly. Itís a way to make a high performance statement for the new millennium."

Vital statistics

Model Tesla Roadster

Engine Electric motor powered by lithium-ion battery

Power 248bhp @ 8000rpm

Torque 200 lb ft @ 0-6000rpm

Transmission Two-speed manual

CO2 n/a

Acceleration 0-60mph: 4sec

Top speed 130mph

Price $98,000 (£48,600)

Verdict Electrifying proof thereís life after oil

http://driving.times...icle2036260.ece

#37 malco

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Posted 11 July 2007 - 09:23 PM

The Tesla will have the same problems of any electric car, lack of endurance.

You can achieve electric performance via over-kill. At the end of WW2 Germany developed a revolutionary submarine called the Type 21, which was about twice as fast submerged as typical designs had been (top speed of 17 knots versus 8-9 knots). But this was not through any techically radical breakthrough, it was just with bigger motors and a huge battery. What surprises me is that the military diesel/electric submarines being built today are still heavily related to the Type 21. The real innovation would be in submarines, not cars. The fact that it has not happened is to my mind the strongest evidence that the various permutations we are now seeing are just variations on a theme, rather than real progress.

Likewise with the Tesla. It has a big motor and a big battery - and it still has all the problems, including the letterbox view of a sports car. I can think of else to do with fifty grand, like get a decent turbo-diesel Merc.
Will economics be single-handed?

#38 DrBubb

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Posted 08 August 2007 - 07:05 AM

Tesla all-electric Roadster to hit road by year end
Late transmission change delayed launch, but CEO says $100,000 car will ship this fall.
August 8 2007: 12:15 AM EDT


LOS ANGELES (Reuters) -- Tesla Motors' all-electric Roadster sports car will start rolling out to nearly 600 buyers lined up for the $100,000 vehicle by October or November, after a slight delay, the company's chief said on Tuesday.

"We will definitely ship in that time frame," CEO and co-founder Martin Eberhard told Reuters at a meeting of the Motor Press Guild, noting that the company had originally expected to begin deliveries during the summer.

Getting past the Prius
The shapely two-seaters are being assembled by Lotus Engineering in England, with motors manufactured by Tesla in Taiwan and battery packs made in Thailand with 6,831 individual lithium ion cells from Japan.

A late change in the transmission vendor "was a big thing for us to do in the program, very painful, and one of the things that has driven us into a little later this year release of the car," Eberhard said.

The Silicon Valley-based Tesla has pre-sold 570 cars to the likes of California Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger, for his wife Maria Shriver, and actor George Clooney. The company will make 1,000 2008 model year cars.

The Roadster, which has a base price of $98,000, can go from 0 to 60 miles per hour in 4 seconds and has a range of more than 200 miles on a single charge on a household plug.

Investors beckoning
Eberhard and co-founder Marc Tarpenning launched Tesla in 2003 with the idea of making a high-performance electric vehicle and then branching out to more affordable cars later on.

Since then, Tesla has secured $105 million in funding, with PayPal founder and space industrialist Elon Musk leading the way and venture capital firms joining in recent funding rounds.

With delivery of the car approaching, Eberhard said: "We have a lot more interest in investing in this company recently."

Eberhard said that if they just limited production to the Roadster, Tesla would be making a profit in 2008.

"But Tesla's intention has always been to grow to be a full-fledged car company as quickly as we can do that," he said.

"We are taking everything we earn from the Roadster and everything we have raised from outside sources to build the next model car."

The next car will be the White Star, a five-passenger sedan with a price point of $50,000 to $65,000, to be manufactured in New Mexico.

"We are in the very early stages of it," said Eberhard, noting that he "would not place any bets" on a target of a 2010 model year.

That same year, General Motors Corp is supposed to launch the Chevrolet Volt, a plug-in electric vehicle with a small combustion "range extender" engine.

GM is shooting for a popular price, over $20,000, with a battery that costs around $3,000.

Tesla wants to keep moving down the chain to a more affordable car and could end up competing with the Volt. But Eberhard said he is skeptical GM's second attempt for an electric car will come to fruition, at least at that price point, mostly because of battery challenges.

"If I sell 10,000 White Stars, it will be a screaming success for me," he said. "But 10,000 Chevys sold would be a disaster."

Tesla plans to open two stores, in Los Angeles and in Menlo Park in Northern California, and will expand later to the U.S. East Coast and Midwest.

@: http://money.cnn.com...oney_topstories
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#39 silverharp

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Posted 09 August 2007 - 07:33 PM

The real innovation would be in submarines, not cars. The fact that it has not happened is to my mind the strongest evidence that the various permutations we are now seeing are just variations on a theme, rather than real progress.


there have been developments in fly by wire etc. which in theory should make an electric car more efficient/lighter now then say 20 years ago.

#40 DrBubb

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Posted 09 August 2007 - 08:26 PM

GM to begin testing Volt electric car by spring
Product chief Bob Lutz says the plug-in vehicle is on track for production in 2010.
August 9 2007: 1:49 PM EDT


TRAVERSE CITY, Mich. (Reuters) -- General Motors Corp. will begin road testing its Chevrolet Volt plug-in hybrid in the spring of next year and remains on track to produce the rechargeable car by late 2010, a senior executive said Thursday.

As the race to bring a mass-market, rechargeable electric vehicle to the market heats up, GM's global product chief Bob Lutz said he expects to have next-generation lithium-ion battery packs ready for the vehicles by October this year.

"We should have the battery packs by October," he said, speaking to reporters on the sidelines of an industry conference. "We'll have some on the road for testing next spring, and we should have the Volt in production by the end of 2010."

GM (up $0.22 to $35.04, Charts, Fortune 500) is the only automaker to have provided a timeline on the production of a plug-in hybrid vehicle, even though other companies, such as Ford Motor Co. (down $0.38 to $8.49, Charts, Fortune 500) and Toyota Motor Corp. (down $3.33 to $119.89, Charts) are working on similar technology.

Automakers have said lithium-ion battery technology remains the biggest challenge in producing a plug-in vehicle as they try to lower the cost of the batteries and increase their power and storage capacity.

Toyota to road test plug-in hybrid
The current generation of lithium-ion batteries, used in devices such as laptop computers and electronic devices, also has a tendency to overheat.

The Volt would be outfitted with new lithium-ion battery packs, which hold a charge longer than the nickel metal hydride batteries now used widely in automobiles.

"The cost of the battery would likely be high even at the time of production," Lutz said, adding that GM is exploring options that would allow consumers to lease the battery when buying the vehicle in order to bring down the sticker price.

Unlike earlier gasoline-electric hybrids, which run on a parallel system twinning battery power and a combustion engine, plug-in cars are designed to allow short trips powered entirely by the electric motor, using a battery that can be charged through an electric socket at home.

GM is designing the highly-anticipated Volt to run 40 miles on battery power alone, reducing or even eliminating the need for drivers to fuel up an on-board gasoline-powered engine provided as a backup power source.

Lutz said GM is requiring a 10-year life for the battery, and said the No. 1 U.S. automaker would look to price the vehicle like a "traditional mid-market car."

GM is racing rival Toyota to offer the first mass-market electric vehicle. Toyota last month unveiled a "plug-in" car based on its popular Prius hybrid model, saying it would test the fuel-saving vehicle on public roads - a first for the industry.

-more: http://money.cnn.com...oney_topstories
The market is "bipolar", swinging back and forth from a focus on Inflation to Deflation. Bet on swings; and stay flexible. What are bipolar markets? See: http://tinyurl.com/GEI-Manix




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